Play Messiah NES controller incompatible with OZ Mattel NES

Play Messiah NES controller incompatible with OZ Mattel NES
by stobiepole on 2005-11-17 (#6723)

Hi. I bought a Play Messiah NES wireless controller from Lik-Sang several months ago, and it didn't work on my Australian Mattel-branded NES. I sent it back (twenty odd bucks postage), to receive a replacement that also didn't work. So I bought another NES (didn't work), then I waited for Lik-Sang to get an Australian NES for themselves to test. That didn't work either.

So I can safely say that the Play Messiah NES controller is incompatible with an Australian NES. At the time I thought, well, bugger it. I'll pre-order a Generation NEX console. But with the negative reviews (and Lik-Sang's seeming to have decided not to stock it - they're listed as unavailable right now), I'm hoping to get the wireless controller to work on my Australian NES - otherwise I've just wasted quite a lot of money.

I can solder and such. Anyone have any ideas what the incompatibility could be, and how to fix it? I can't seem to find anything to suggest that Australian NES controllers are wired any differently than any other NES controller. I can say that the Play Messiah SNES controller works on the NES with an adapter cable...

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Chris

by Great Hierophant on 2005-11-17 (#6732)

I have heard that many European Super Nintendo controllers (the ones with the colored buttons), would not work in a US Super Nintendo or Japanese Super Famicom and presumably vice versa. The NES controller is like half a SNES controller, so I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't work in a PAL NES when it was intended for an NTSC NES.

by tepples on 2005-11-17 (#6735)

The standard NES and Super NES controllers are just big shift registers clocked by a signal in the cable. If they're incompatible between 50 Hz and 60 Hz consoles, I don't see why, unless they have some sort of "turbo" function.

by Memblers on 2005-11-17 (#6737)

I've heard of this before, a while back I think it was Bananmos who had some controllers from north america and said some of them (not all, I think) wouldn't work on his PAL NES.

I have no idea why. The pinout is the same, and the clock speed differences between the CPUs don't seem like they'd be significant.

by tepples on 2005-11-17 (#6738)

Was he talking about standard controllers

or some other model, especially one with a turbo function? And did these incompatible controllers carry a Nintendo seal or not?

by kyuusaku on 2005-11-17 (#6740)

Yes original controllers. PAL consoles need a slight modification to use NTSC controllers, I think however PAL controllers will work fine on NTSC machines, if anyone cares I can check tomorrow.

http://www.gamesx.com/misctech/eurosnescontrol.htm

by sepi on 2005-11-18 (#6744)

Memblers wrote:
I've heard of this before, a while back I think it was Bananmos who had some controllers from north america and said some of them (not all, I think) wouldn't work on his PAL NES.

I have no idea why. The pinout is the same, and the clock speed differences between the CPUs don't seem like they'd be significant.

I have once encountered a non-functioning controller, and it had a bad chip (4021) once i replaced it the controller worked fine.

by Jagasian on 2005-11-18 (#6747)

Messiah's products have the same quality as cheap asian pirate hardware.

by bunnyboy on 2005-11-20 (#6812)

At first I thought how could they possibly mess up a shift register! The only electronics inside the NES004 controller is the one chip. Then I opened a NES004E controller and saw more. There are pull up resistors on the clock and latch lines. Apparently the Mattel NES (and possibly all European NES) use open drain outputs. The NES can pull those lines low, but needs the pull up resistors to set the lines high. That means a European controller will work on a USA system, but not the other way around. The dog bone controller also includes pull ups.

So the simple fix for the Messiah receiver is to add those resistors. They are ~3.5K in the NES004E, I used 1.5K because it was closest to me. Open up the receiver by taking off the rubber pads and taking out the screws under them. Their NES cable has 5 wires going to the board. Solder a resistor between the black wire (bottom) and the red wire (top). Solder another resistor between the yellow wire and the red wire. Pict is at http://www.retrousb.com/NEX/wireless.jpg

I wouldn't say Messiah designed it badly because apparently this difference isn't well known. Just means they didnt test the controller with any foreign systems. I will forward this information to them in hopes they will have another revision with the problem fixed.

by stobiepole on 2005-11-21 (#6857)

I used a couple of 3.3K resistors and it worked a treat. Thanks so much.

by sepi on 2005-11-23 (#6898)

bunnyboy wrote:
At first I thought how could they possibly mess up a shift register! The only electronics inside the NES004 controller is the one chip. Then I opened a NES004E controller and saw more. There are pull up resistors on the clock and latch lines.

Strange, my controllers have only 8 pull-ups (at buttons), it seems like it matches to the USA controller by 100%

by mark_k on 2006-02-26 (#10142)

bunnyboy wrote:
At first I thought how could they possibly mess up a shift register! The only electronics inside the NES004 controller is the one chip. Then I opened a NES004E controller and saw more. There are pull up resistors on the clock and latch lines. Apparently the Mattel NES (and possibly all European NES) use open drain outputs. The NES can pull those lines low, but needs the pull up resistors to set the lines high. That means a European controller will work on a USA system, but not the other way around. The dog bone controller also includes pull ups.

This is from memory, it's been a few years...

If you open up an (old style) European/UK NES, the controller ports are attached to a little PCB. The data lines have diodes in. In a US NES, the port pins connect directly to the main board. (It's not a PAL-specific thing, since the PAL Hong Kong version NES doesn't have the diodes either.)

My guess is that this might have been done due to European EMI/RFI regulations.

Anyway, if you prefer, instead of modifying the Messiah receiver PCB, you can open your NES, and either replace the controller ports with a no-diodes one from a US NES (no soldering needed), or bypass the diodes by soldering wires to them.

-- Mark