Do you want to make something for the
NES Expansion Port or do you desire to buy that
elusive connector that plugs into it that mysterious expansion port underneath the Toaster NES that has
never been available until now, anywhere?`
I am having a large run (
hundreds) of these 48-pin connectors custom-made and expect to have them soon. What is the demand for them and who wants to buy one? I expect to be able to sell them for around
$15 a pop., maybe less depending on the demand I have for them (both types).
I hope to have them in stock and available to buy within the next 30-days…
Having them custom-manufactured is the only way to make the buggers in an affordable fashion... Please keep in mind that I’m going out on a limb here by shelling out for this up-front, so you can kiss and adore me later! Letters of love, admiration gratitude and general worship for my awesomeness are welcomed.
Volume discounts will apply and I'm taking a huge gamble to them made and to make special expansion devices, so speak up if you want one! Thus, if you want to make that Ethernet adapter or a sound/graphics co-processor, now is the time to speak up about it!
I also pan to use them for some
expansion-port modules, such as a plug-in board for the PowerPak FDS (Loopy's) Extra Sound, and a module to plug Famicom expansion devices, like the
3-D glasses onto the NES and a kit to add the expansion port to the top-loading NES (NES-101) and Famicom series a bit later on down the road.
Is anybody interested in these types of products?
Your NES/FC Geeky Hardware Pal,
-Xious
Flashback Vintage Electronics
Xious wrote:
a plug-in board for the PowerPak FDS (Loopy's) Extra Sound
YES.
It's about freakin' time this feature was made easily accessible to your average joe.
Would it also do other expansion sound?
Definitely interested.
Post pictures when you receive them.
The last guy who tried to make these decided not to because they were so expensive. Seems like you've found a cheaper source. Do you have a rendering of the cartridge? I'd probably be interested in getting one (or more) of these.
Regarding making a powerpak fds sound module, I'm sure you could find someone who could solder a 47k resister cheaper than $15 (plus shipping and resistor cost). I guess some people would be willing to pay the extra cash even if it only makes a difference in a few games.
I like. I'd get a blank one and make my own sound module. One that does Powerpak sound and sound from famicom carts.
Another thing that could be cool is to make a reliable memory card to save games without having the hazards of battery backup.
I certainly don’t know if I’m having them made for less than whomever else considered doing this, but I am willing to pay all of the up-front costs associated with making them, plus the cost of producing them in mass quantity, which few others (or in the case of this part, nobody) are willing to do. (As I said, you can kiss me later.) Running a legit electronics firm that has been in business for ages may also help, as I have contacts all over the industry and I can get access to stuff like this.
Now, to answer your questions:
Yes, I plan to sell them as an individual components! These will be around the $14.95 price mark for single piece, or around $125 for ten. I may lower this price if my demand is high, but I don’t yet know how many people will want. I also plan to brand them with a ‘Flashback Vintage Electronics’ name mark and I may offer them in multiple colours for those who want to be fancy, at an extra cost.
Devices designed to plug directly into the port:
The FDS-Sound mod board is only one example, and will probably be around $15-20, as I have to assemble them by hand to start and blank through-hole PCB isn’t cheap these days.
I am open to suggestions on other uses that you would want. I think that an adapter to use the 3-D system, Keyboard, etc, would also be nice, but this would require making a plastic housing, designed the mate underneath the NES. Is anyone here skilled enough in plastic to make something like this (in resin or epoxy material?
Is anybody good enough with 3-D cad to model what it will look like for rapid-prototyping? (I have contacts with rapid-proto ‘plastic printers’)>
Lastly, does anybody have a project in mind for this port at present that they would we willing to develop in tandem with me? This port offers unlimited possibilities, including co-processor, custom chip, RAM or other expansion boards, or even PC-Link boards.
If you want to make something using this connector, please contact me to talk about it (via PM or e-mail).
You can e-mail me at (remove the “(nospam)” tags):
flashback@(nospam)AtariUSA.com -and- design_by_xs@(nospam)yahoo.com
Or ring my mobile at: 908-616-8747. I look forward to serving the community and assisting developers in making new hardware products and games for the NES.
-Xious
That's amazing news. When/if the connector is made, I'll buy at least one right away.
This gives me something to think about, as I'm currently redesigning my "Squeedo" dev cart. Problem is, an extra connector and 2nd board would make the whole kit even more expensive than it already is.. but the idea of having some portion of it's functionality carry over to other carts is very interesting.
OK Chief!
I should have the first samples in a couple days and then, after I check all the measurements, I will get the final product within the following 3-to-2 weeks.
I'm kinda' needing to know how many units people will want to buy or will need. I can always produce more, but the higher number of units that can be made from the mould at once, the less the cost per unit; I can't negotiate a pro-rate.
I am curious to know what devices you have in mind and I have an idea of my own and will need someone very experienced with the NES to carry it out. Somebody with Brian's skill... I also need an FPGA and CLPD expert. Is anybody interested in helping to make the most exciting NES expansion product ever conceived?
Thus, if you want to order them in tens, packs of 25, etc, I need to know; else my first batch will have a sales limitation of five or ten pieces per person. I also need to know what mounting package you most desire!
If there is anybody who wants to cooperate o n an idea for a NES expansion unit, please PM me; I won’t discuss the details in the eyes of the public. Together we can breathe new life into this platform with an exciting new idea of mine...
For everybody else, I will post photos as soon as I have one of these in my hands. Look for updates soon!
-Xious
Xious wrote:
The FDS-Sound mod board is only one example, and will probably be around $15-20, as I have to assemble them by hand to start and blank through-hole PCB isn’t cheap these days.
Would that enable all expansion audio like VRC6, FME-07, etc? I'm likely less educated than most others here about what sort of possibilities are out there for this device, although I do know that if there's a way to get expansion audio working without
soldering a resistor to the board, lots of people would find that handy.
An expansion board that does this is one of my planned concepts.
-Xious
bucky o'hare wrote:
Xious wrote:
The FDS-Sound mod board is only one example, and will probably be around $15-20, as I have to assemble them by hand to start and blank through-hole PCB isn’t cheap these days.
Would that enable all expansion audio like VRC6, FME-07, etc? I'm likely less educated than most others here about what sort of possibilities are out there for this device, although I do know that if there's a way to get expansion audio working without
soldering a resistor to the board, lots of people would find that handy.
Honnestly, $15 is staling for one resistor. But if it allows people who dont have a soldering iron to play games with extra sound on their NES it's a good thing. In fact I even think Nintendo was planning this, as their MMC5 boards have connectivity for extra audio. Maybe they were probably planning to have an western FDS plug down there ? At least I know it was planned then cancelled, but I don't know if it was going to be plugged here.
Bregalad wrote:
Maybe they were probably planning to have an western FDS plug down there ? At least I know it was planned then cancelled
Here's my guess: It was originally planned to have the RAM cart in the cart slot and the disk drive on the bottom like the Satellaview and 64DD. Each pin on the expansion bus between the CPU and PPU buses would correspond to one pin of the cable between the FDS RAM cart and the disk drive. But I suspect Nintendo canned it after seeing the mass copyright infringement of FDS disks.
Now that I think about it, the expansion connector doesn't allow that much to what cartridges didn't allow.
It allows expansion sound, this is one fact.
It also allows a device to triggers NMIs while you could only trigger IRQs with cartridge. However, I don't really see where NMIs could do something IRQs couldn't (especially considering you'll have to have code detecting VBlank NMIs and expantion port NMIs at the start of each NMI).
It allows some device to be easily connected through $4016 or $4017 ports as long as it doesn't conflict with the controller ports.
This is pretty much all. Co-processors, etc... is of course possible but it's also possible in a cartridge. The only thing is that there is no the area limitation of a cartridge board. Communication also might be simplified by the $4016 and $4017 ports to avoid having to place extra logic on the board holding the extra co-processor.
But I don't think a device plugged into the bottom connector could be ever completely separed from cartridges. For example let's admit you have a powerful processor capable to do mode-7 like operations on 2BP bitmaps. Then the game would have to send bitmap data a few bits at a time trough $4016 and $4017, and in VBlank when the calculation has been done, read $4016 and $4017 to get data to write to VRAM few bit at a time. This obviously would be way too slow. So extra logic has to be fit in the cartridge to handle this and use other expansion pins to fast things up. Then the whole logic might just as well be in the cartridge, and the expansion port is still useless.
Xious wrote:
An expansion board that does this is one of my planned concepts.
-Xious
bucky o'hare wrote:
Xious wrote:
The FDS-Sound mod board is only one example, and will probably be around $15-20, as I have to assemble them by hand to start and blank through-hole PCB isn’t cheap these days.
Would that enable all expansion audio like VRC6, FME-07, etc? I'm likely less educated than most others here about what sort of possibilities are out there for this device, although I do know that if there's a way to get expansion audio working without
soldering a resistor to the board, lots of people would find that handy.
Awesome! Thanks, I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this project. And if it comes through, I'll of course be sharing this with all the chip-music forums I frequent. There are
definitely people outside of this forum who will be very interested as well!
Bregalad wrote:
Now that I think about it, the expansion connector doesn't allow that much to what cartridges didn't allow.
It allows expansion sound, this is one fact.
This alone is huge for all the nsf dorks.
The resistor is supposed to be in the cartridge, all the expansion port needs to do is add 2 wires to redirect the audio i/o. I will put sound i/o on my next cart design (but there will continue to be support for expansion sound on a toploader, or any completely un-modded NES), and as a musician I don't really trust a random resistor someone else picked out, because it could too easily end up sounding "wrong" (and with no frame of reference, who would even know it?). With Famicom, the mixing is done on cartridge as well.
I'm still kind of torn on whether to design an under-NES board into my setup, the main problem is the features may suffer from the more limited I/O. There are 10 general-purpose pins, down to 8 once you use audio. I guess I could put a CPLD on there and multiplex those lines somehow. Maybe it wouldn't be too hard to let it run in a 'compatibility' mode where the cartridge wouldn't need any extra chips to use it (bankswitching "for free"?). I'm not sure yet.
It also seems like a design challenge to make a larger-sized expansion connector board, I guess some stand-offs with rubber feet or screwed to a bigger plate. It needs to support the weight of the NES, being slid around on, and at the same time not put any stress on the solder joints. A proper plastic base for the NES is pretty much out of the question for me to afford.
I would be interested in such add-ons.
but what can this port do?
I am uneducated in the abilities of the expansion port of the nes.
But here are some ideas that most likely require expert engineering.
I'm sure these ideas if possible would be quite expensive to implement
I would of course support the either simple FDS sound expansion port add-on simply to keep my nes as unmodified as possible even though I'm quite capable of soldering. I would buy one even though its rather simple of just 2 connectors and a resistor
But I'd like to see something much more interesting
I'm curious of the possibility of an external sound mixer
You know it Stereo
think an add-on expansion port on the bottom of the system could be created to support 2 RCA jacks and the components required to output this? If it's possible I wouldn't stop there. Add a small variable resistor (?) to modify the stereo output mixing level turn it all the way down the 2 sides are isolated as you turn it up mix the channels together
I'm sure you should have seen the original mod.
I want to see the same concept that plugs into the bottom.
If this cannot be done with the expansion port alone and some soldering was required id still buy it for the fact I wouldn't need to drill my nes case
This might go into the realm of impossible but here it goes
Time to dream big!
an expansion port add-on that would attach a copynes or some debugging utility , or something that could write and or dump save files
Considering that your post only mentioned producing something simple perhaps if an effort was made in collaboration with someone with these engineering skills this idea and others might not be far off
either with soldering or without soldering i would like to see a copynes type item that sat outside the box
allot of people said the expansion port had allot of the capabilities of a normal cart if this is true then it opens the possibility of a alternate powerpak or perhaps something that could enhance its abilities to help support more mappers. I would like to see the nes accept a CF card without the need of a cart in the machine running.
Let's go for some other ideas too
Like I keep saying I'm sure these are impossible but I'm trying to light a kindle of a flame. I'm not an expert so please don't assume that I am
I want people to think bigger!
Save states (SD CARDS
)
Screenshots
Record game play record the memory state
OR
Game replay IE playback of recorded in the form of a FCE movie playback (which I believe is not an actual movie per say but a recorded memory state being played) and then played back by injecting that recorded ram state into the memory which would begin playback the game play
I'm sure that would require a separate processor to do this kind of a memory dump and injection real-time
Well I'm sure half the forum is laughing at my obscene ideas
If anything please consider real FDS support and mixable stereo sound
everything else i said can be done with a poor mans emulator
Well, like I said without a special cartridge not much is possible with the connector. All it can do is have extra sound in, and like you said, it could take AV out too. It can have adressed registers via $4016 and $4017, and that's it. The only way it could do expansion sound without anything special on the cartridge is if you'd have new sound channel(s) which is (are) entierely adressed via low bits of $4016 and $4017, which sounds restricted to me. If such a device were created, games could have expansion sounds using normal mappers, which would be cool.
Another thing I think would be great would be to have some kind of EEPROM wired to $4016 and $4017 so games could do secured saves, and all that using normal mappers.
Anything else would require a special cartridge anyways, so you'd as well end up doing everything in the cartridge, unless you run out of space.
It won't help with stereo sound, you would still need to cut traces from the CPU to do that.
Bregalad is right that you would need a special cartridge to take advantage of a lot of things it could do. That's no big deal I think, but what is kind-of a bigger deal is that by doing so you will be forsaking all compatibilty with the NES2 (toploader), as well as Famicoms and Famiclones. Which is a lot to lose..
Even MMC5 forsakes famiclone compatibility.
tepples wrote:
Even MMC5 forsakes famiclone compatibility.
I suppose that's the case, but AFAIK all the Famiclones that have problems are a lot more recent than the MMC5. The Tristar/Super-8 is known for being pretty good, as well as the pre-NOAC (discrete chip) clones that I'm aware of. I haven't personally tried MMC5 carts on them, but I would be surprised if they didn't work on the more accurate (directly copied?) clones.
Xious wrote:
I also pan to use them for some expansion-port modules, such as a plug-in board for the PowerPak FDS (Loopy's) Extra Sound, and a module to plug Famicom expansion devices, like the 3-D glasses onto the NES and a kit to add the expansion port to the top-loading NES (NES-101) and Famicom series a bit later on down the road.
Is anybody interested in these types of products?
I registered to say I love you.
Does that answer your question?
Truely a NES hardware development milestone!
When these materialize I will deffinately be getting in line to buy.
Xious, any updates?
On the bottom of my NES, I have a cover that snaps into place, and I can pinch the edges to remove it, but there's nothing under it, just more plastic. It looks like there's a little window in the case, but it's blocked off by more plastic. Do I need to cut that plastic 'hinge' off in order to get to my expansion port?
Other than that, there's nothing that even remotely resembles a plug or anything on the bottom of my NES.
Yes, you need to snap some plastic to acess the expansion port. This is irreversible, but doesn't cause any damage nor does this require any screwdriver or anything tough.
Actually a flat headed screw driver is ideal for snapping off that bit of plastic.
Will it look anything like the one I made?
http://www.54.org/sage/condev/FC_NES_Co ... %20001.jpg
http://www.54.org/sage/condev/FC_NES_Co ... %20002.jpg
http://www.54.org/sage/condev/FC_NES_Co ... %20009.jpg
So the one I made allows you to use the FDS adapter in a front loader.
I also added an audio out cable to the adapter that connects with a Y-adapter to the output of the NES so you can get the Famicom cart sound output without any modifications to your NES.
Hi all,
Update: I had a spinal injury that put me out of action for a while. The first batch came in with a bit of a problem, as they were too snug (the central gutter is too tight) and I am having another set made with correct measurements. The pins and all other measurements were perfect, so this is only a temporary delay.
I should have the next batch in 1-2 weeks and thereupon; I will be able to offer them presently.
If anybody has product designs in mind that can utilize the port, please contact me. I have an idea of my own for a co-processor design that will utilize both the port and the cartridge bay for a very special purpose, but I need some talented help to materialize it. If you are good at VERILOG, please contact me ASAP.
EDIT: I also need to decide how many to produce in the first production run, so if you are interested in ordering the connectors or wish to have me produce a PCB with the connector as part of it, please let me know and tell me how many pieces you will want.
The larger the run, the less each connector will cost, so if there is a greater demand, there will be a correlative discount in the component cost!
-Xious
How soon until we see the FDS sound version of the board go into production?
Why would Nintendo cover the expansion port like that, if they ever intended to release peripherals for the NES that would utilize it? For protection? Even though there's already an actually removable cover for it?
PC manufacturers does the same thing for the place where you can add an extra CD-drive, just for extra protection i guess
Presumably, if and when they released an expansion device, Nintendo Service would have issued instructions on how to remove the plastic shield or suggested bringing your Control Deck to an Authorized Service Center who would do it for you.
The plastic shield is probably a safety precaution to prevent kids from removing the snap-cover and licking the EXP Port connector…
In other news, I expect to have further updates next week. I have been catching up on customer orders now that I am mostly recovered from my injuries.
-Xious
Drag wrote:
Why would Nintendo cover the expansion port like that, if they ever intended to release peripherals for the NES that would utilize it? For protection? Even though there's already an actually removable cover for it?
Xious wrote:
Presumably, if and when they released an expansion device, Nintendo Service would have issued instructions on how to remove the plastic shield or suggested bringing your Control Deck to an Authorized Service Center who would do it for you.
The plastic shield is probably a safety precaution to prevent kids from removing the snap-cover and licking the EXP Port connector…
Oh right, yeah, that makes sense. It's always good to childproof toys.
(especially since I used to lick the cartridge connectors clean when the games didn't work
)
Quote:
a module to plug Famicom expansion devices, like the 3-D glasses onto the NES
Id like some type of adapter for the above.
was about to make something my self so i could use famicom only devices like 3d glasses on my toaster nes.
This is already 'in the works', if you want to wait a few weeks.
-Xious
acem77 wrote:
Quote:
a module to plug Famicom expansion devices, like the 3-D glasses onto the NES
Id like some type of adapter for the above.
was about to make something my self so i could use famicom only devices like 3d glasses on my toaster nes.
Xious wrote:
This is already 'in the works', if you want to wait a few weeks.
-Xious
acem77 wrote:
Quote:
a module to plug Famicom expansion devices, like the 3-D glasses onto the NES
Id like some type of adapter for the above.
was about to make something my self so i could use famicom only devices like 3d glasses on my toaster nes.
ill be tracking this and look forward to the release
Well I find it interesting that humans are impatient to buy something that they don't even know if it will have any use. I will keep notes of this if I ever found a company or somehting.
Bregalad wrote:
Well I find it interesting that humans are impatient to buy something that they don't even know if it will have any use. I will keep notes of this if I ever found a company or somehting.
Of course it will have a use. On #nesdev yesterday, we were talking about development for
Playpower Foundation's famiclone. The conversation went roughly like this:
<someone> you should target authentic Nintendo hardware and not NOAC famiclones
<someone2> famiclones are still manufactured; NES isn't
<someone> anyone serious about playing NES games will buy a used NES and a 72-pin connector on eBay
<someone2> this famiclone has a keyboard and can run Family Basic; NES doesn't and can't
<someone> then buy a Famicom keyboard on eBay and buy Xious's expansion port adapter
Yeah but Xious said he was going to make something that plugs below the NES, he didn't ever mention what it would be and asked for ideas here.
There still is a #nesdev channel ? For some reason I was sure it was down for years already back in 2004 when I suscribed here.
Bregalad wrote:
There still is a #nesdev channel ?
A page about this channel is linked from every page of the wiki.
If you are going to quote me, please be accurate. I said that I had ideas of my own and would be making expansion devices, plus selling the connectors. I did not say what they were, but a DA-15 expansion is one of them, as you may piece together by my asking for DA-15 port sources.
The hardest part of the DA-15 EXP connector is casing. I have to decide if I want a cable with a female port, of an under-shell, which will magnify the cost.
Another idea is a special sound expansion card, and another project for which I will need the help of others. I need some good VERILOG programmers… Is Loopy still around, or Brian/Bunnyboy?
The latter project is confidential, but if it materializes, will be amazing.
What I asked is if anybody has good ideas for expansion devices, as I can't think of everything and I value useful input.
As of this week, I am waiting for a second set of samples. The gal that is working with me to produce the connectors was on vacation all of last week, and this is taking longer than I expected, but things arte definitely progressing.
The first batch of connectors didn’t fit because I mis-measured the thickness of the edge connector on the EXP port. They have the right outer size and pin configuration, but the gutter is too tight.
I modified one to make it fit, but it's ugly and I want them to be perfect.
-Xious
Bregalad wrote:
Yeah but Xious said he was going to make something that plugs below the NES, he didn't ever mention what it would be and asked for ideas here.
There still is a #nesdev channel ? For some reason I was sure it was down for years already back in 2004 when I suscribed here.
I will do what I can, but what you want to see is a mystery to me. I am not sure if you want to see the present, incorrect connector, my hacked up and modified connector, or the final product, which I should have in hand in 2-4 weeks.
It llooks like a blue, plastic, 40-pin socket, so I don't know what you expect to see...
-Xious
No Carrier wrote:
Pics, please.
Probably pics of anything disproving hot air.
Can you provide any sort of visual information on what such adapters might look like? Even ms paint diagrams would be fine.
footprint would be nice too
SatoshiMatrix wrote:
Can you provide any sort of visual information on what such adapters might look like? Even ms paint diagrams would be fine.
I am working on figuring out what kind of casing to provide. If anybody wants to discuss this with me, along with features of a customizable expansion base, please ring me on my mobile at 908-616-8747.
I will shoot some photos of the connector, and maybe one of the connector board proto, bur that is not what I would consider proof against vapourware. A couple more weeks waiting for something like this aren’t going to hurt...
I am only one guy after all, with a legitimate business and the funds to do this, but one man nevertheless with a finite amount of time each day, so there is only so much that I cam do at once and I have other NES/FC projects on the cooker. Replacement ROB parts is another...
At least I think I secured somebody with experience in plastics, but I still need a VERILOG programmer...
-Xious
UPDATE:
I really wanted to wait until I had the final part in hand to update this thread again, but it's nearing the end of the month and I want to keep everybody in the light on what's been happening lately...
There was a (hopefully final) delay caused by tooling for the socket's edge-connectorL It's a double-edged sword for me, as it increased the tooling cost dramatically, but I'm paying it to ensure the availability of these for the foreseeable future. Stupid generous me...
I guess at the least, it'll be wiki-worthy...
If you want the technical details on what happened, read on:
The EXP port has an edge-connector made of plastic that is a completely non-standard thickness and it required additional tooling to create a proper fit. The second samples were not quite right, and I want to make it perfect.
I really have to wonder if there is a huge bin (or a landfill) full of these in Nippon somewhere that Nintendo Co., Ltd made in 1985/6, but never used for anything...
I still have to talk to their R&D folks about ensuring that it is snug, but still easily removable. (I also still have to upload the photos of my ugly, modified socket, which are on my Canon EOS XTi...)
I also have to EMS an extra NES to the manufacturer so that they get the height of the connector right, and I will be doing that in the next couple days, along with a huge cheque to cover the extra tooling costs.
I hope that, if I need taller ones int he future, that there won't me any surge in price, although I can always make a sub-board on a ribbon cable and use the same part.
I have my fingers crossed that there are no further delays, as I wanted this done by July, and now it is almost August. I know that a lot og you are a combination if impatient and skeptical, so I'm doing my best to get this done as soon as possible without sacrificing product quality.
Thank you all for your patience and faith in this project.
-Xious