I have an extra top loader that I don't mind experimenting with to try and figure out how to get perfect video out of it.
Here's what I know so far:
- the top loader / front loader have the same CPU and exact same PPU
- the video quality does not improve with the AV mod
The only thing I did notice between the top loader and front loader is the actual traces on the board. The top loader uses very thin traces! Thinner than ones on carts.
Has anyone had any luck with fixing video on this system?
leonk wrote:
- the top loader / front loader have the same CPU and exact same PPU
Actually, this is not true - from numerous reports, frontloaders use an RP2C02G PPU while toploaders use an RP2C02H, and this is reported to be part of the problem.
Quietust wrote:
leonk wrote:
- the top loader / front loader have the same CPU and exact same PPU
Actually, this is not true - from numerous reports, frontloaders use an RP2C02G PPU while toploaders use an RP2C02H, and this is reported to be part of the problem.
I will confirm tomorrow.. but when I did compare the 2 this past weekend, they were identical.
My Famicom AV doesn't have the problem and is extremely similar to the Top Loader in design. It uses a RP2C02H and the traces are likely equally thin to the Front Loader. It could be the chip, PCB layout, a circuit board mistake or poor quality parts being used.
Has anyone ever used a SNES power supply? Maybe the NES-001 power supply just isn't well-suited to the Top Loader. You may get a better picture if you can use a power supply with the same specs. My Famicom AV does.
What should be done is to take the video signal directly from the PPU pin and feed it through the video amplifier shown on the NES 001. If the problem still exists, then you can likely eliminate the PCB as a suspect and concentrate on the chip itself.
Well folks.. here's what I found out.
My NES-101 (top loader) has the following:
PPU - RP2C02G-0 (3CM 37)
CPU - RP2A03G (3CM 10)
My NES-001 (front loader) has the following:
PPU - RP2C02G-0 (9G2 13)
CPU - RP2A03G (9G1 24)
I can take pictures of the PCB's for those of you that don't trust me, but the problem is NOT with the PPU as previously suspected! My top loader has a front loader PPU from the factory, yet still has the "jail bars" on the RF output.
It's something else.
Anyone care to share PCB pictures of the AV famicom?
Is that AV famicom???
It seems to have the 'H' PPU which makes me believe it's actually a US top loader.
While we have a picture of the AV Famicom's guts, can anyone tell me what the Nintendo branded chip does? Also, why do the PCB traces seem to be masked? Is one side of the board used more often than the other side?
Great Hierophant wrote:
While we have a picture of the AV Famicom's guts, can anyone tell me what the Nintendo branded chip does? Also, why do the PCB traces seem to be masked? Is one side of the board used more often than the other side?
I'm not sure, but I would guess the Nintendo chip is the CIC. As far as the traces, they are definatley not "masked". This board is much smaller than the original. Notice that there is not much surface space on the board left, since it's almost entirely covered with parts. All the interconnecting traces are done on internal layers of the board.
teaguecl wrote:
Great Hierophant wrote:
While we have a picture of the AV Famicom's guts, can anyone tell me what the Nintendo branded chip does? Also, why do the PCB traces seem to be masked? Is one side of the board used more often than the other side?
I'm not sure, but I would guess the Nintendo chip is the CIC.
It can't be, for 2 reasons:
1. It's 32 pins! The CIC is only 16 pins.
2. The Famicom never had a lockout chip in the first place.
My guess is that it contains the logic of the two 74368s (for the controllers) and the 74139 (for address decoding).
I'm inclined to agree. Here's why:
Above the 2A03 is "U6 CPU". Above the 2C02 is "U5 PPU". Above the mystery chip is "U3JIO" which I took to mean "joystick I/O".
Someone recently sent me the pinout for this chip. I just haven't added it to the site yet.
http://nesdev.com/nes_pio_pinout.txt
hmm...
it's difficult to compare the top loader USA to the famicom AV.. the layout is completly different and some of the IC's are also different.
Maybe what we should do is trace pin 22 (video out) all the way to the RF out and compare that to the front loader?
Also, I've noticed that the famicom top loader has a few more electrolitic caps (which the US one does not). The vertical bars I notice on the output reminds me of the "jail bars" one sees when their arcade monitor needs a new cap kit!
Has anyone tried adding the "missing" caps? and if so.. what did you do?
I think its a simple matter of the circuit being different.
When I have some time, I will "draw" out the schematic in simplified form from the PPU to the composite output.
My guess is that just "buffering" the PPU output with an emitter follower isn't enough. There might be some filtering going on.
Using the circuit from these schematics should work unless there are errors in it:
http://64.53.95.207/schematics/schematics.html
I see a couple errors after only a minute of looking at it.
Pin 37 and 65 on the cart interface are swapped. I'm pretty sure Char ROM Enable (pin 37 on there) is not connected to the system clock. Somethings not right about the Clock signal line, connected to pin 35,36,39 instead of ..well - the clock.
Hopefully that's it.
I don't think that matters one bit.
Its all related to how the analog signal is treated after it comes out of the PPU.
I think if you took a toploader and run the signal through the same path that the front loader has, it will come out clean with no lines. Its seems obvious that the frontloader and toploader have two different circuits for the composite video signal.
I've tried it, and failed.
I lifted pin 22 from a front loader (the video out pin) and ran a wire from pin 22 on the top loader to where pin 22 comes in on the front loader. I then powered both systems, and had a game inserted into the top loader.
The video coming out of the front loader was all messed up, probably because I needed to lift the pin on the top loader as well; the video signal coming out of the top loader was not strong enough to give video to both top and front loaders.
Does it make sense??
hi,
I'm the one who made the little doc about the jio chip found in the new famicom.
I checked the path that the video circuit use in the NFC and draw this little circuit in paint
Hope this help.
I will rewrite my doc with more info about the NFC instead of only pinout of JIO and corecting some typo
. Will do that maybe this weekend.
Anyway there the pic:
http://darthcloud.da.funpic.org/img/bypass.html
I looked at the schematics you provided.
They are definatly doing some filtering in after it gets to the tin metal box. There are some cap values that aren't specified in that schematic. I'm going to have a look in my NES later to see what they are.
I may be able to simply the circuit to just a few parts with a buffer (emitter follower).
DarthCloud: What's the voltage rating on C6 ?
Also, what is FC2?
leonk wrote:
DarthCloud: What's the voltage rating on C6 ?
Also, what is FC2?
FC2 is just a fuse, just ignore it, and for the voltage I will try to check that later today.
**edit**
Excuse my previous answer I wronly understand your question
lol
C6 is a normal ceramic cap, I don't realy have a way to know is voltage rating but it doesn't realy matter anyway for this one I think. Any 560pf cap should work. Give us news if you able to test these circuit in your redesign nes.
Anonymous wrote:
I don't think that matters one bit.
Well, I for one, wouldn't trust it if it has a such blantant error. Not a very well done schematic anyway. I want this one:
http://videogamecollectors.com/gallery/ ... _schematic
Well, its hard to tell what's going on in that metal can without breaking it apart. You can tell that schematic (orange one) was reverse engineered because it doesn't have values on some of the caps in the circuit.
I can only guesstimate them, and figure out what the key ingredient is to getting rid of the lines.
The official schematic posted is much too hard to read. It would greatly help me for an official schematic of what's in the little metal can.
SUCCESS!!!!
I'm not getting perfect, clean composite video out of my USA top loader!
Here's what I did:
- lift video out pin on top loader
- lift video out pin on front loader
- run a wire from video out on top loader to video out hole on front loader
- VERY IMPORTANT: connect the grounds between the 2 systems!
- power both systems
run game on top loader.. watch video from front loader. PERFECT CRIST VIDEO QUALITY!
So the problem is between the video out pin and output to TV. Time to redo that circuit.
more info update..
I build the small circuit board shown above (without the C6 or FC2) and the video quality is perfect!!!
This of course stops the RF from working, but who cares when the picture quality is PERFECT!
The only thing is the brightness is 1-2 levels lower. I think the extra cap and fuse cause the brightness to go up a notch.
What ever the case may be. It's all good now! I LOVE it!
UPDATE: I added FC2 and C6. Lots of them found on a front loader NES. It didn't do anything to the brightness. You should not be able to notice any brightness differencess unless you compare it to a front loader side by side.
What ever the case may be.. the video amp suggested above works. Now, time to try and get RF to function as well (but why bother!?)
Cool leonk!!!
It's strange that the redesing nes was so ( ironicaly) badly desingned compared to NFC and even all other NES/FC/VS/PC system. Maybe NOA designed it instead of NCL ,who know. lol.
I think I know why a front loader is brighter..
I cracked opened the silver box and traced the video line. It seems that there is a C1740 transistor inside of it! Yet another video amp!
OH.. and the 3rd party schematics out there are wrong.
DarthCloud wrote:
Maybe NOA designed it instead of NCL ,who know. lol
Yep, when you let Americans design a game system, you end up with the Sega 32X or the Xbox.
Or the Atari Jaguar.
But the Japanese still take the cake for the monstrosity that is the Sega Saturn.
(Regardless of how painful it was to program, it had some great games!)
This is truly excellent news. I always believed that you could use the simplier circuit from a Famicom A/V (a.k.a. New-style Famicom) in a NES Top Loader and get perfect video quality.
Now, if we had a similar schematic of the NES Top-loader's video output path, we could compare it and see how simple a modification needs to be. The schematic for the video output of the Famicom AV is about as simple as you can get. I assume that Nintendo either neglected to add the 560pf capacitator, used wrong resistor/capacitator values or introduced an interference causing element through bad traces. It would be easier to trace the NES Top Loader's output because it does not use the inside of the PCB to run traces.
Somebody has the AV-Famicom Videoamplifier ?
Bye Markus
Anonymous wrote:
Somebody has the AV-Famicom Videoamplifier ?
Bye Markus
Hi,
Moosmann from GamesX Forum?
Did you meen that?
http://darthcloud.da.funpic.org/img/bypass.html
Picture is realy the best for an 2C02 but nothing is better than an RGB one!
By the way, I did the rgb mod on my AV famicom and it work fine, It's the best console for that since it had an normal MultiOut connector on the back.
I'm using your first RBG amp, I can't get the new one to work I'm using 2N3905 PNP instead of BC557 (nearly impossible to get in canada) maybe the probleme is there...
How difficult is it to remove the R/F unit entirely? The Top Loader only has one RCA jack in the back and that is used for the R/F connector. If you remove it, you can put in either the composite video RCA jack or put in a stereo 1/4" jack for (mono) audio and video out (on different portions of the pin) and use an RCA converter to split the signals, unless it would make a difference in picture quality. That way you could avoid drilling holes in your top loader.
I've decided to drill holes in my top loader because I've also done the stereo mod. So I needed a total of 3 jacks. Plus, I strongly suggest that you have you RCA jacks as far away from where the old RF connector is. You want to minimize the amount of noise you pick up from the power supply. It tends to be the nosiest section in the system.
DarthCloud wrote:
By the way, I did the rgb mod on my AV famicom and it work fine, It's the best console for that since it had an normal MultiOut connector on the back.
Can you please post links to the RGB mod for th AV Famicom? Is it possible to mod the AV Famicom so that it has S-video output?
Jagasian wrote:
DarthCloud wrote:
By the way, I did the rgb mod on my AV famicom and it work fine, It's the best console for that since it had an normal MultiOut connector on the back.
Can you please post links to the RGB mod for th AV Famicom? Is it possible to mod the AV Famicom so that it has S-video output?
The mod involves replacing the original PPU with an RGB PPU like those found on the Playchoice 10 or whatever. This isn't perfect, however, since the emphasis bits don't work right any more. Games such as Just Breed will show up as solid grey since it turns all 3 bits on. Also, it is missing that dark grey palette entry for some reason, so games that use it will look... odd.
As for s-video, it can't happen 'cause the NTSC (or PAL) video exits the PPU fully formed. I guess you could add an RGB to NTSC converter chip onto the output of an RGB PPU to get s-video, but that's about it.
You could obviously use a filter to split the NTSC video up into Y and C, but this kinda defeats the purpose since the damage is already done.
Jagasian wrote:
DarthCloud wrote:
By the way, I did the rgb mod on my AV famicom and it work fine, It's the best console for that since it had an normal MultiOut connector on the back.
Can you please post links to the RGB mod for th AV Famicom? Is it possible to mod the AV Famicom so that it has S-video output?
I'm actualy working on this, I will use a Sony CXA1645 from a PSX for getting Composite Video and S-Video. I have buy lot of stock from Digikey recently, all I need Is an old PSX for the CXA.
For link everything is on gamesx forum(just standart mod not S-Video):
http://nfg.2y.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=187
http://nfg.2y.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=956
http://nfg.2y.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=1592
All game I had look realy great and it would be great to build a list of bad looking games.
I am really interested in getting perfect video out of my top loader. I have a few questions though. I am not quite following what exactly you have done.
1. Do you have to do the RCA mod to accomplish this?
2. Did you build a circuit so thaat you dont have to have a wire between 2 systems?
I don't know maybe I just need more of an explanation. Can you supply pictures?
Quote:
The mod involves replacing the original PPU with an RGB PPU like those found on the Playchoice 10 or whatever. This isn't perfect, however, since the emphasis bits don't work right any more. Games such as Just Breed will show up as solid grey since it turns all 3 bits on. Also, it is missing that dark grey palette entry for some reason, so games that use it will look... odd.
I believe that is what the Famicom Titler does, so I wouldn't bother modding an expensive Famicom AV and possibly ruining it when you could buy a Titler for only double the price.
Quote:
1. Do you have to do the RCA mod to accomplish this?
2. Did you build a circuit so thaat you dont have to have a wire between 2 systems?
1. No, you don't have to create an RCA mod, but no one yet has determined the way to do it with the RF box inside the Top Loader. I suppose you could build the same circuit and instead of sending the video to an RCA jack, you send it to the video in pin of the RF box. Somehow I don't think its that simple. Still, it would be useful to know for those of us who don't want to injure our precious top-loaders.
2. Yes, see Darthcloud's pic above. That shows the circuit you connect to the 2C02's video output pin. You can eliminate FC2 and C6 without affecting video quality.
Great Hierophant wrote:
1. No, you don't have to create an RCA mod, but no one yet has determined the way to do it with the RF box inside the Top Loader. I suppose you could build the same circuit and instead of sending the video to an RCA jack, you send it to the video in pin of the RF box. Somehow I don't think its that simple. Still, it would be useful to know for those of us who don't want to injure our precious top-loaders.
2. Yes, see Darthcloud's pic above. That shows the circuit you connect to the 2C02's video output pin. You can eliminate FC2 and C6 without affecting video quality.
I don't think you can simply connect the output of the video amp to the RF because the nes RF need a weak video signal, since we amp it that will result in too bright picture I think.
So you need to add two RCA jack to your top loader.
Just connect the second jack to the audio pin of the RF box.
if you don't want to drill two big hole in you top loader you can also
use an 3.5mm audio jack and use an 3.5mm to Stereo cable for connecting it to your TV set.
Quote:
I don't think you can simply connect the output of the video amp to the RF because the nes RF need a weak video signal, since we amp it that will result in too bright picture I think.
I don't think that amplification itself will eliminate the lines because earlier composite video mod, which did also amplify the signal but did not eliminate the lines. The RF unit, which also amplifies the signal, does not cause the interference because it is also seen with the older composite video mod. If you wish to continue to use RF mod, it should be simply be a matter of adding the proper decoupling capacitator somewhere before the video reaches the RF box.
But anyway there is not reson to still use RF in 2005, any TV as composite input. Best is to remove the RF Box and use an 3.5mm jack in the hole left.
If someone can track for us the path that the video signal take in the top loader between the PPU and the RF Box like I did for the NFC. That would be helpfull for fidding the real probleme.
Maybe someone could make a guide with pictures?
Personally, I haven't noticed much of an improvement going from RF to composite video on the NES, but I don't have the equipment to make the comparison at the moment. The only reason to use RF is that it is likely to involve less drastic alterations to the top-loader's PCB. (No need to cut the video line to the RF unit or solder directly to the PPU pin.)
I have a 27" JVC from 1998, and I notice a HUGE difference going between RF and composite. The colors don't bleed onto one another with composite the way they do with RF.
I also notice a huge difference going between composite and S-Video. S-Video does not have the "walking ants" effect on solid lines the way composite has. Maybe the best thing out there is an RGB mod -> Svideo conversion.
The PPU generates colors by oscillating between high and low voltages. The best possible way to generate S-video without swapping out the PPU would involve tracking the master and pixel clocks somehow, determining the high and low voltages for a given pixel, sending the average on the luma pair, and sending the difference on the chroma pair.
Greetings. I've been looking through this thread, trying to determine if there's any hope for the video on my top loader NES.
If I get my facts straight...
1) It seems that the well documented A/V Mod isn't sufficient to clean up the video.
2) You can use some component from a toaster style NES to fix the video, and also have A/V out, but it wont fit in the top loader box.
I might be OK with 2, but I'm wondering if anyone can put up some pics of what piece to "lift" from the old NES and how to use to put out a clean video signal.
Thanks for the help!
TheDruidXpawX wrote:
Greetings. I've been looking through this thread, trying to determine if there's any hope for the video on my top loader NES.
If I get my facts straight...
1) It seems that the well documented A/V Mod isn't sufficient to clean up the video.
2) You can use some component from a toaster style NES to fix the video, and also have A/V out, but it wont fit in the top loader box.
It appears the reason for the 'lines' on the toploader's video is the PPU. It is a revision H PPU, which is only found in the toploaders. The front loaders all use revision G PPUs.
So, you could try swapping out the PPU from a front loader to see if it fixes the problem. I suspect it will.
I want to do this mod to my toploader, but I just have never gotten around to doing it.
I socketed the PPU in my toploader and actually swapped in a front loader PPU.
Same results. It's not the PPU.
Apparently, this new mod does significantly reduce the lines, but they are still visible in certain circumstances. Follow this thread on DP for an example:
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=79907
Anyone have better luck?
Apparently you have to be a member to even read the posts at the digitpress forum. That's as bad as the New York Times, bleah.
Quote:
Apparently you have to be a member to even read the posts at the digitpress forum. That's as bad as the New York Times, bleah.
Only for certain sections. And for the record, a subscription to The New York Times is not free. DP is.
-Rob
More fun reviving old threads! I got a load of World Class Service manuals and they include schematics for the front loader and top loader. I drew up the video sections of each, from the ppu pin to the rf box pin. They are very similar, with the top loader adding just 2 resistors. Unforunately there is no info about the insides of the rf box.
Link to video schematics
I still believe it's an issue with shielding.
When I connect the sync out from the GPU to my own video amp, and it sat outside the box, the video was clean. When I put it all together, it got noisy.
I don't know if anyone has a better way of fixing the vertical line distortion in the top-loading NES, but I recently recuced it in mine by about 90-95%. My method, unfortunately, does require making a couple of cuts on the board, which I dreaded doing, but it was necessary for the mod. The problem is that the video signal coming out of the PPU is getting interference from the address/data lines, mainly AD7, since the pathways are so close together. Here's how to fix it:
1) Find the pathway on the top side of the board connecting pin 21 of the PPU to Q1.
2) VERY CAREFULLY, cut this pathway as close to the PPU pin 21 as possible. BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO CUT THE ADJACENT PATHWAYS! Use an ohm-meter to make sure it's cut all the way through.
3) Now cut it as close to Q1 as possible. This is important! If you don't cut it at both ends, it will act like an antenna and thus not eliminating the interference. Make sure it's completely cut.
4) Look on the bottom of the board and find Q1. There's a pathway coming off of the front pin of Q1 leading to a test point near the power switch.
5) Connect a wire from PPU pin 21 to this test point. I recommend running the wire in an "S" fashion, coming off pin 21 at an angle following the diagonal +5V pathway there, then come around along the small ground plane going through the middle pin of Q2, then back along the next +5V pathway up to the test point.
If you did this correctly, you should now have a nice clear picture.
Oh, yeah. I figured I'd mention this while I'm at it. Many people believe that adding AV jacks to the top-loading NES requires an additional transistor for the cideo signal. This is not true; Q1, when properly wired, can amplify the video signal sufficiently. I discovered this in my AV Famicom, which uses this transistor as the only source of video amplification. I removed the modulator in my top-loading NES and used a circuit similar to the AV Famicom, except that I substituted the resistors for other values, mainly due to availability. My circuit produces a picture that's just a little bit darker than the AV Famicom's, but I think the colors are better. Here's what to do:
1) Replace R1 (510 ohm) with either a 390 ohm resistor (what I used) or a 310 ohm resistor (what's in the AV Famicom).
2) Remove R3 (150 ohm).
3) Replace R2 with an axial 220uF capacitor, at least 6V (if it's too long to fit in the R2 slot, connect the back lead to the front hole for R3). MAKE SURE that the (-) end is at the FRONT and the + end is at the BACK.
4) Desolder the right side of the filter choke FC2 (between the cartridge connector and the heat sink) and pull it up.
5) Install one lead of either a 120 ohm resistor (what I used) or a 110 ohm resistor (what's in the AV Famicom) into the right hole where you pulled out FC2. Connect the other end of the resistor in series with the filter choke.
You can now connect the left hole where the modulator once was to a video jack. If you intend to leave in the modulator, you'll need to use a resistor with a larger value at the filter choke (I don't know exactly what value to use in this case - you'll need to try different ones to see what gives you the best RF image). Then you can tap a wire off of the choke/resistor junction and feed the wire into a 390 or 310 ohm resistor on your video jack. You'll need to refer to other sources for audio connection, though. I just tap 1uF capacitors off of pins 1 & 2 of the CPU, but you may not find the volume to be sufficient by doing that.
rt9342 wrote:
Here's how to fix it:
...
If you did this correctly, you should now have a nice clear picture.
I tried the above, and the image quality is still not perfect. My PPU is socketed. I even lifted pin 21 and ran the wire directly to Q1. It is much cleaner, but not perfect.
There have been rumours that Nintendo fixed these systems for customers that complained. I wonder what they did!
Hmmm.....mine looked pretty darn good - I'm wondering if the AV mod I did may effect it a little, since the pathway leading under the VRAM now has a much stronger signal. Perhaps re-routing the signal coming out of the transistor to the modulator aome other way may elimininate more interference. Actually, the VRAM was one of my original suspects, since some of my vs. arcade boards also have these lines, but only when certain video pages are being used. I also noticed that if I run my Famicom off of the +5V supply of my NES (with the CPU & PPU removed from the NES to reduce power consumption), the Famicom would get the lines, so the power supply may be contributing to the problem in some way.
Oh, yeah - about those rumors of Nintendo fixing it - I haven't actually heard about it, but one time I sent off my NES for repairs, because I screwed up the board doing mods. The local Nintendo repair center wouldn't work on it, but Nintendo let me ship it off, and they put in a new board that had a much cleaner picture, but not perfect. As far as I could tell, the only difference on the board was that it had an Alps modulator instead of the usual Mitsumi modulator, and the CPU & PPU had "H" suffixes instead of "G" suffixes that were on my old board (this is why I strongly disagree with the rumors that the "H" PPU is the problem - why, then, did I have BETTER picture with the board with an "H" PPU?). Unfortunately I no longer have that board to look for other differences - my house got flooded a few years ago, so it went back to Nintendo, this time being completely replaced with a refurbished unit with the older board & chipset.
Quote:
As far as I could tell, the only difference on the board was that it had an Alps modulator instead of the usual Mitsumi modulator, and the CPU & PPU had "H" suffixes instead of "G" suffixes that were on my old board (this is why I strongly disagree with the rumors that the "H" PPU is the problem - why, then, did I have BETTER picture with the board with an "H" PPU?).
Has anyone tried replacing the modulator in the top loader unit to see if that fixes the problem? I know this is an old thread, but I still play my NES 2 and would love to have this fixed - one day.
It's me again - well.....it's been years since I've actually tried replacing a modulator in the top-loading NES (I just ended up going to AV until I did an RGB conversion), but if I remember correctly, a better modulator can improve the picture a little, but it certainly won't improve it a lot. Though I've had mixed opinions for a while, I now think that RGB is the best way to go, as long as you use resistors to bleed the 3 channels just a little - this reduces the heavily saturated look that the RGB PPUs are plagued with, and improves a lot of the colors, making most games look close to the original NES graphics, only much clearer. The background will still look kind of saturated on Zelda and the brown objects on Super Mario Bros. will still be a little too bright, but it's not too bad. And by the way, an RGB conversion will pretty much clear up most of the vertical line problem.
Hi Folks, sorry for bringing this back from the dead, but I decided to go back to this, and try a small experiment. I used the same circuit as the original one in this thread, but this time I wired up the circuit differently, and guess what. IT WORKED!!!
I finally have clean, as good and as bright picture coming out of the toploader as I ever had coming from the front loader.
Here's what you need to do:
- build the same "new" amplifier as shown in the beginning of this thread. Mount it on top of the top shield (double sided tape foam works great)
- Lift the video pin on NES video chip (PPU pin 21)
- use 24 gauge multistrand wire to run between the video pin and input to amplifier (old IDE cable works great here!)
- take an old ethernet cable, and cut it open. Use twisted pair wire from it, and run Vcc to amp from Vcc from video chip (PPU pin 40). Use other wire its twisted to to run GND (PPU pin 20)
- Use another pair of twisted pair wire from ethernet cable and run GND and Video out from amp to the RCA plug.
By keeping the GND and Vcc sources as close as possible to the PPU, and video out, and using twisted pair wire, you are able to completly block out all noise!
The picture is clean, and perfect (even on SMB1 which shows the vertical lines most easily). There are NONE!
good luck!
I have an extra top loader here that I tried to bring back to life. It seems that the 1B4B1 bridge rectifier on it is gone. I pulled it out, and connected one of the the AC plugs to +, and the other to -. I then used a DC adapter set to 9V to see if the unit will power on. And it did!
Except now instead of vertical bars, it has wavy bars.
(so there goes the idea of converting the unit to run DC like an SNES rather than AC-AC)
I think the reason that the top loader video output is so bad is because the RF modulator is so close the AC/DC power converter!
The front loader has them on the same board as well, but there's at least 2-3 times the distance between the outlets!
Everything about the top loader seems to have been shrunk. Rather than diodes, and 1B4B1 is used. Must smaller crystal, etc.
What a nightmare of a unit.
What would happen if you removed the modulator and did not replace it with anything, using the A/V mod instead? Woudl the need for shielded cables disappear? I ask because putting the A/V out in the hole where the modulator output was seems a logical place for it and it would not necessitate cutting a hole elsewhere in the case. On the other hand, it may be too close to the AC-DC conversion circuitry.
I found that the vertical lines were most easily noticeable on a game with solid gray backgrounds. Slalom is the game I use to demonstrate the problem or lack thereof. Fiddling with the brightness and contrast may also be necessary to "know" they are gone.
How close do the colors/brightness/contrast appear on this new mod compared to an AV Famicom or a front loader NES AV output?
Hey..
like it or not, holes need to be cut, otherwise you have only video and no audio. I never tried removing the current RF modulator, but it doesn't work (since video out pin in PPU is lifted).
The video quality itself is identical to the front loader (I did an A/B comparison while both systems were running!). I don't have a famicom toploader AV, so can't compare to it.
As far as AC/DC converter is concerned, I'm not sure the problem is there. Even if you use a DC input (which works!) the system still had the vertical lines.
i see there hasn't been much activity on this thread for a few months , and even less for months before . i would like to thank all of you who contributed . i applied this mod last night after some difficulty with the one described here :
http://www.gamesx.com/rgbadd/nes2avmod.htm
it seems that one is quite sensitive to the model of transistor that is used , and i was unable to find the "easy to find" transistor .
the great thing about the mod described in this thread is that you don't have to find a transistor at all . in fact , the only parts needed are a few resistors and capacitors .
for those who did not know , it is possible to modify the circuit by using the Q1 transistor that is already on the board . in this way , you can avoid lifting any IC pins , and you can also prevent the hassle of running a 4th wire to your mod circuit for ground .
what i did first was a step described on the gamesX mod . i removed resistor r3 and then cut the tiny trace running underneath it .
stolen from gamesX
this may have been an unnecessary injury to the board , as i believe the trace runs to the RF unit , and the same effect would be achieved by removing the next resistor to the right , and making no cuts .
next i prepared this reduced variation of the schematic presented in this thread earlier :
the input lead of the circuit can be soldered to the backside contact for Q1 , or it can be connected to the contact of the connecting resisor to its left (as seen from top) .
i got my +5 (red) from this pin in the top center of the backside . green is nothing . it is supposd to be for RF mod but we aren't using that . the concact labeled audio was run to a stereo miniplug jack , as was video out from our circuit .
stolen from gamesX
ground is also connected to the appropriate pin of the minijack .
stolen form gamesX .
that's it . plug a phono miniplug to 2RCA cable into the jack and you are ready to go . almost all remains of the vertical bars are gone , and color and brightness are perfect and beautiful .
DarthCloud wrote:
leonk wrote:
DarthCloud: What's the voltage rating on C6 ?
Also, what is FC2?
FC2 is just a fuse, just ignore it, and for the voltage I will try to check that later today.
FC2 is a ferrite bead it helps reduce noise (EMI/RFI) in the video circuit
C6 looks like it boosts the voltage up a little
i think the brightness would be normal with it present
didn't try but it looks that way from the
schematic
as for voltage of C6 knowing Nintendo it would be under 16v maybe its 10 or less
Just thought I'd dig up an old thread, here...
I got a top loader the other day, and am very interested in this mod. Unfortunately, the original link (
http://darthcloud.da.funpic.org/img/bypass.html ) doesn't work, and I have no idea what's going on.
I'm more of a visual guy anyway, I was wondering if Leonk or someone else could pitch together a small little guide? Sifting through everything in this thread, it's hard to tell which posts are successful mods, and which ones are back-to-the-drawing-boards.
Also, thought I should add that I got my NES already A/V modded, it's the old mod, hopefully this won't ruin chances of getting the new mod to work. Not sure if the mod was done correctly or not, though...A/V seems to work just fine, but RF gets me mostly gray screen with some slightly scrambled graphics.
Anyway, hoping I'll get some replies here =) Now all I need to do is figure out how to get these dang screws out.
Oh yeah, and is RockyRogue's guide fairly accurate? Says that ALMOST all of the lines are gone?
One more edit, leonk posted this: "build the same "new" amplifier as shown in the beginning of this thread", is he referring to the bypass.html broken link?
Okay, I'm done with my terribly rambling post, now =)
hi there..
the bypass web site is up! And that's the one I built. It works perfectly for me.
And these are all parts from the toaster NES's video circuit?
Asaki wrote:
And these are all parts from the toaster NES's video circuit?
If possible, I'd also like a complete circuit diagram of the NES video path, similar to
Kevtris' NES audio path one.
leonk wrote:
I think I know why a front loader is brighter..
I cracked opened the silver box and traced the video line. It seems that there is a C1740 transistor inside of it! Yet another video amp!
OH.. and the 3rd party schematics out there are wrong.
DarthCloud's diagram doesn't seem to include this transistor. Did it end out being part of the video circuit?
I've used DarthCloud's diagram to create my video amplifier, and it's super clean and as bright as the original NES with no lines. The important thing to remember is that once it leaves the PPU, it should never go back to the PCB. Keep the lines short and well insulated (and away from any noisy sources!)
As far as components, everything you'll need can be found on the toaster NES system.
As far as transistor. It's there. 2SA937. You can remove this part from the top loader and reuse it! The only component not found on the top loader is the FC2 line filter (found in toaster) but I don't think it's needed.
I'm having a heck of a time trying to remove the video box from this old NES
The solder holding the shielding on just doesn't want to melt. I hope I don't fry any of the components.
Hopefully I'll be able to get it out, and then figure out how to get my top loader opened.
leonk wrote:
As far as components, everything you'll need can be found on the toaster NES system.
As far as transistor. It's there. 2SA937. You can remove this part from the top loader and reuse it! The only component not found on the top loader is the FC2 line filter (found in toaster) but I don't think it's needed.
So you're saying that the original top loader's circuitry is fine as long as you move it and/or give it better shielding?
Also, are all of the parts that I need from the toaster located on the inside of this shielded box?
Edit: Ack...so I'm looking around, and it seems like ALL of the parts I need are on the outside of the box. Oh well. That's what I get for jumping into things without looking first. No harm done, just wasted time.
They don't seem to match up with the schematic, though.
Schematic says:
R5 - 300 ohms
C5 - 220 uf
R6 - 110 ohms
C6 - 550 pf
Parts are:
R5 - 220 ohms
C5 - 330 p
R6 - 47k ohms
C6 - nothing there
I suppose at least I've got the Q1 and the FC2.
Q1 and FC2 are all you need from the front loader. The rest of the components you need to buy.
Actually, you don't even need Q1. You can reuse the Q1 that's in the top loader. All you need to do is desolder it and move it to the circuit board you're building. Some people have suggested you don't even need the FC2, you can go without it.
As far as the box is concerned... there's only 2 ways to remove it. Use a desoldering station or use a heat gun. Solder + hand pump/braid will never get it off.
Quote:
Q1 and FC2 are all you need from the front loader. The rest of the components you need to buy.
So you'd sacrifice a front-loader to improve the picture on a top-loader? What's the point if you're losing the front-loader?
blargg wrote:
So you'd sacrifice a front-loader to improve the picture on a top-loader? What's the point if you're losing the front-loader?
A top-loader is region-free, and its Game Pak connector is thought to be more reliable.
leonk wrote:
As far as the box is concerned... there's only 2 ways to remove it. Use a desoldering station or use a heat gun. Solder + hand pump/braid will never get it off.
Yeah, I was using braid. But since none of the parts are inside it (I figured they were), I guess I was just wasting time.
blargg wrote:
So you'd sacrifice a front-loader to improve the picture on a top-loader? What's the point if you're losing the front-loader?
It was a junker I had laying around. Can't get it to work for the life of me...I think someone spilled something in it. I've got another front loader that I've done a Game Genie and region free mod to, but it still doesn't work half as good as the top loader (sans the poor video).
Ordered a gamebit, should get it this week, hopefully tomorrow =) Tried doing that homemade melt-a-Bic-pen trick, but the grooves on the pen just kept stripping right off.
I was thinking today...if the video lines are picking up too much interference from the power supply, how did the Famicom AV get away with it?
Also, in preparation, will it be easy to lift out the video pin, or am I going to have to desolder the entire chip to get at it?
Yowza, the guy that did the AV mod to this did a terrible job
Duct tape instead of electrical tape (that's gonna leave a mess), and solder splattered all over the broken little Radio Shack board.
At least he did a stellar job mounting the AV jacks, I can thank him for that. I would've never been able to do that myself.
Can't wait to get started on this, but unfortunately, I have to go to work =/ Will probably have to wait until the weekend >_<
Hey, at least I had that junker NES around...it's nice to see their screws are compatible =)
Okay, I don't mean to sound stupid or anything, I just want to be absolutely certain that I've got this right before I tear into this thing.
I'm using Loopy's pic, I'm assuming my dot would be in the same place (there isn't a dot on mine), and I'm assuming this is the PPU, and Nintendo didn't try to trick me by writing "PPU" in the wrong place on the board =)
Do I have to connect the ground directly to the PPU, or will I pick up noise by connecting it elsewhere?
It's been a while since my electronics classes, C5 has polarity, I don't remember how to check it. I'm trying to do a search online, but I don't see anything useful, and I don't feel like digging out my old books from college. Also, the closest thing I could find is 220uf, but it's 10v instead of 6.3v, will this be okay?
I have to go to Radio Shack anyway...I can't find either of the two resistors or the other capacitor =/ Don't really feel like running parallel resitors, last time I did that, it wasn't pretty @_@
On the schematic, what are the pins on Q1? Is that little smudge supposed to be pin 1, and then ground is pin 2, and pin 3 goes to pin 21 on the PPU?
Oh yeah, I think this is the last question, since I'm pulling pin 21 straight off the board, I'm assuming this means I don't have to worry about the previous modifications made to R3 and whatever else?
Looking closer, whatever mod this guy did is a little bit different from the one at GamesX, unless he just goofed somewhere. For some reason, R2 is replaced (looks like...430 ohms? Hard to tell what the first band is, unless I'm looking at it backwards...then it's still hard to read).
Okay, that should be everything. Since 21 is right on the corner, I think I'll just try to lift it out without removing the entire chip. Think I'll be able to manage it without breaking anything.
In the meantime, I'll look for some spare twisted pair, and maybe if I'm lucky I'll find those resistors.
Hi there! Hope this helps.
- ground is ground. Get it anywhere. I got it from the shiny parameter around on board.
- You can lift the pin, or you can trace it to the next IC (which should be the on-board amplifier). You can lift the on-board amp, or remove the resistor next to to the amp. And then solder the wire to the PPU.
- When it comes to capacitors, the longer leg is always negative. It should also have a white line printed on the cap on the negative side.
- You gotta find a good electronics shop in your area. Find out where the local electricians / TV repair people go. Rat shack sucks and is over priced!
- GamesX reused the on-board amplifier to drive the RCA plugs. The problem there is that it's still in the same noisy place. This almost reproduces the on-board video amplifier, but puts it on a separate board that doesn't pick up as much noise.
Good luck!
I don't even see any traces coming from pin 21.
Oh wait, I think I see it now. It goes underneath the chip and then winds its way along to Q1.
The "longer leg" thing is ringing bells now, but since this is soldered onto something, I'll have to go with the line (it has a black line with arrows pointing down). You never said if 10v would be okay instead of 6.3v.
I was just wondering if anyone has any input on how to improve the video on an original famicom? I have one modded with an AV out, but the picture is still kinda bright (just like the RF out) Anyone know a fix to this? Thanks.
Does it have a capacitor in series with the amplified output?
Asaki wrote:
I don't even see any traces coming from pin 21.
Oh wait, I think I see it now. It goes underneath the chip and then winds its way along to Q1.
The "longer leg" thing is ringing bells now, but since this is soldered onto something, I'll have to go with the line (it has a black line with arrows pointing down). You never said if 10v would be okay instead of 6.3v.
The important value when it comes to capacitors is the capacitance, not the voltage.
You can use 25V caps and it'll be find. What it means is that the caps are rated up to 25V @ xxx uF. The capacitance must be bang on. All voltage on the NES is 5V anyways! Even the 6.3V is off!
silkd wrote:
I was just wondering if anyone has any input on how to improve the video on an original famicom? I have one modded with an AV out, but the picture is still kinda bright (just like the RF out) Anyone know a fix to this? Thanks.
WHAT!? Are you kidding me? It's supposed to be that bright! The problem with the original AV mod for the top loader is that it still had the vertical bars and too dark.
If it's too bright, lower the brightness on your TV.
leonk wrote:
The capacitance must be bang on.
It looks to me like C5 is for decoupling and C6 is part of a low pass filter, neither of which are very critical.
leonk wrote:
All voltage on the NES is 5V anyways! Even the 6.3V is off!
The voltage out of the amplifier should be like 1Vpp.
leonk wrote:
WHAT!? Are you kidding me? It's supposed to be that bright! The problem with the original AV mod for the top loader is that it still had the vertical bars and too dark.
If it's too bright, lower the brightness on your TV.
He's talking about AV modding an old Japanese Famicom. He's just in the wrong thread is all =)
Did the mod, so far so good =) There's still some bars on the screen, but I'm hoping it's because I'm not finished yet.
I had I taken out the resistors connected to Q1 and ran a wire from Q1 to my amp, that might be causing some of it. I just finished redoing my amp with Q1 on it.
I don't know if this might be causing any of it, but I couldn't find any 560 pf capacitors, so I put four other ones I found in parallel (330, 30, 100, 100). In theory, this should be the same, but I feel kinda sloppy doing it this way. The only 560s I could find at Radio Shack came in a variety pack of 100, for $4.50, so I guess I will have to find out where the heck to get cheaper parts around here.
Finally, since I was just making sure it worked, I just used regular wire. I'll have to go find out where the spare twisted pair is tomorrow. Hopefully that'll clear the picture up a good deal, it already looks loads better than it did before.
Found the twisted pair last night, got everything soldered and taped down and what not...but there's still lines =/ Hopefully I can find the proper capacitor and that'll fix it, though it sucks that I probably won't have time to do it until next weekend.
Okay, replaced those capacitors...and there are STILL lines >_<
I have no idea what I'm doing wrong, here =/
The only other thing I can think of is to try to find some way to lift pin 21.
Guess for now I'll just put it back together and be happy that it's cleaner than it was before.
Edit: Yeah, something's definitely wrong. I was playing for a few minutes, and now I can't get any picture at all, just slightly squiggled black screen =( I still get sound, so hopefully that means it's not fried >_<
Unfortunately capacitors alone aren't magical line removers, you need to make a filter using a resistor as well or some other type of circuit entirely I'm not aware of.
kyuusaku wrote:
Unfortunately capacitors alone aren't magical line removers, you need to make a filter using a resistor as well or some other type of circuit entirely I'm not aware of.
This is the circuit you are looking for:
http://darthcloud.da.funpic.org/img/bypass.html
OKAY.
I went back and reread most of this thread, looking for clues. RT9342 was right, there must be some interference coming from the lines near the one between Q1 and pin 21. I even had taken out Q1 and all the nearby resistors, with the wire soldered directly onto pin 21, and still lines. I took the plunge and lifted pin 21, and now my picture is crystal clear.
Dunno what the screen going black was all about, it's not doing it anymore =)
Anyway, pretty excited to have the best NES possible. Thanks a ton, you guys =D
Someone oughtta link this around a bit
Edit: Just a small tip if anyone needs it, I took some of the ethernet wire that was leftover, wrapped it around the pin (after desoldering it, of course), and gently tugged at it with some pliers. Possibly not the best way to do it, but it got the job done.
It isn't necessarily the best signal possible or nearly the best circuit by default since it needs the specific Japanese transistor and sounds like it needs the ferrite choke. Has it been compared to other GENERIC small signal transistor amplifiers? I bet any common collector amp with that same transistor would perform the same. Before people hail Nintendo's cheap circuit as the end all, realize that a 2N3904 could be biased for the desired 1Vpp into 75ohms output.
kyuusaku wrote:
It isn't necessarily the best signal possible or nearly the best circuit...
Maybe not, but the composite video quality is the same as a toaster NES, with the advantage of the proper cart slot, so I'm pretty happy.
I got an old Famicom last week and i see very much vertikal stripes lines.
To reduce the lines, lift Pin 21 from the PPU or disconnect the line from pin 21 to 2sc...transistor and solder the Video-Amp directly to the PPU. However, you always have some vertikal lines on some games (e.g. Bird Week), so please solder an 220uF electrolyt capacitor between PPU Pin 40 and GND. You also have to take the 5V for the Video Amp from PPU Pin 40 (...and 220uf capacitor) and not from an other 5V place from the PCB.
Solder an 220uF electrolyt capacitor without lift Pin 21 from the PPU or vice versa don`t make it 100% stripes free.
Greeting Markus
Hello, this is my first post in this forum!
My father and I have been trying to make an NES 2 get AV output by following this guide:
http://www.gamesx.com/rgbadd/nes2avmod.htm
I am not experienced in soldering and electronics and stuff, therefore I took help from my father who has worked with this for almost his whole life...
Anyway, we completed this mod, and tried it. Sadly no signal came through to either video or audio.
Still the RF-output seem to work as good/bad as usual, so the stuff that fixes so the RF-out still works, is working.
Now to some questions:
Quote:
Now comes the fun part. Remove the resistor labelled R3 (Right above the (c) 1993 in front of the cartridge port. After you've removed it, cut the trace running underneath it.
Is the resistor ment to be removed and never put back? We've tried the both, but neither worked. When we put back the resistor the RF-signal worked worse, almost not at all. And "cut the trace running underneath it" means the trace under the resistor? (I mean I don't have to flip the motherboard!?)
Strange that not even the audio works. What could go wrong? My father soldered one wire to the audio point at picture #2.
Why are we even bothering doing this mod? Well the NES2 doesn't work good with the RF on a PAL TV, the sound doesn't work at all. Well some sound come through while using the RF and fine tuning, but that quality is so bad so it's even better without it!
Could the problem be that we use a PAL TV? Seems strange when the same TV works with with the first version of NES (both American and European) and also the AV Famicom...
Kreese wrote:
Could the problem be that we use a PAL TV?
I believe NTSC stuff is supposed to work okay on PAL TVs, but not the other way around. That wouldn't explain why you're not getting any audio, sound is sound, there's no NTSC or PAL for audio.
Kreese wrote:
My father soldered one wire to the audio point at picture #2.
Should be two wires, one at the point in picture 2, and one connected to ground in picture 3.
I'm not exactly sure what you're supposed to do with R3, the way that guide words it is a bit confusing. I've only
disassembled the guide at GamesX (or something similar), it's a bit different going that way.
ok you didn't get video or audio? hmmm... did you ground the RCA jacks?
you should have 3 wires going to your RCA A/V jacks video, audio and ground... the ground wire goes to both jacks (outer connection) and the signals (audio & video) to the center connection
thats the only thing i can think of that would cause no sound or video...
if its not the ground try pushing start on the control or putting a game in with start screen music.. that way you can test the sound proper
EDIT: oh one more thing if the page didn't say to put it back then you shouldn't.. not till you have sound anyway... it wont effect the sound because its part of the video amp
New update I have added a 74HC373 to my ver 7 NES and it works great with the powerpak.
everything seems to work great. Most of my problems seem to have been from bad connections.
at this point I would say this is a universal fix for any front loading NES with a RGB mod to enable powerpak compatibility
I tried a duo ppu mod Rgb/composite+RF.
For the most part I piggy backed both PPUs then I select the ppu I want by supplying it with 5V from a switch.
I was also going to use a rgb led for the power led. If I am in rgb mode it will light up blue and red for composite video mode.
I Had everything working but it added more vertical lines/noise.
I went back just used the RGB PPU to minimize the vertical lines.
A funny /dangerous /stupid thing I did was piggy back both with PPUs to see what would happen.
I got no video but the sound would still play but it was playing very fast.
After playing around I noticed older v4 NES systems have more vertical line noise in the image than the ver 7 NES.
this is something to consider when RGB modding a NES.
Games run from the powerpak display vertical lines more intensely.
Asaki wrote:
Ordered a gamebit, should get it this week, hopefully tomorrow =) Tried doing that homemade melt-a-Bic-pen trick, but the grooves on the pen just kept stripping right off.
I was thinking today...if the video lines are picking up too much interference from the power supply, how did the Famicom AV get away with it?
Also, in preparation, will it be easy to lift out the video pin, or am I going to have to desolder the entire chip to get at it?
I took a pair of needle-nose piles and was able to remove the screws, Then, I took my dremel and cut them to turn them into standard screws.
questions
Do I have to cut the video because I may still want to use the RF in the future, (even if it still has bad video.)
Hello, I have successful did this mod on my NES2 with perfect results. I also did the Stereo mod at the same time and mange to get every thing to fit really nice. I have written a very detailed guide using “Autoplay Media Studio” It’s a AIO program that is very easy to use just download and open. Then follow the instructions on your screen. I have included lots and lots of very detailed pictures and a parts and tool list of every thing you need to do this. Tips and detailed instruction for every step in this mod. I tried to make the guide Idiot Proof. This guide is written more for the amateur / beginner. This guide has everything from harvesting the Need component parts from the NES 1 toaster to building the Video Amp board and even mounting the RCA or 3.5 Jack.
It is 7.51 MB file size mainly due to the Detailed Pictures taking up that space.
Download here: Removed because no one used it and it expired!! Use the NON AIO link instea its still good
BOTH FILES ARE SAFE AND ARE THE SAME JUST ONE ISN"T A AIO
Due to some False Antivirus reports because its a self contained encrypted archive .exe. I have now released a NON AIO version you can (Just download it> Unzip it> Open folder> And open autorun.exe.
DOWNLOAD NON AIO HERE:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/k21bpm
BOTH PROGRAMS DO THE SAME THING AND ARE BOTH SAFE
Sample Pictures below of this guide:
dmtgamepack wrote:
Hello, I have successful did this mod on my NES2 with perfect results. I also did the Stereo mod at the same time and mange to get every thing to fit really nice.
Thanks dmt, this is a very cool contribution. I purchased my NES2 on ebay a few years back at quite a premium, so I have been hesitant to modify it. But you've got me curious, I hate the vertical stripes!
Edit: Just downloaded, and Clamwin is claiming the .exe is infected with "Trojan.Qhost-165". I'm suspicious of anything delivered in executable format, I'll run it on my Linux box where things are safe.
Edit 2: Ran it under Wine without any issues, the material looks good. Maybe Clamwin is being over-protective. I would prefer a more standard format, like the wiki, but thank you for your contribution.
teaguecl
RE: Trojan Qhost-165:
I wrote this program using AutoPlay Media Studio 6 It compress the data in a AIO (All in one file self contaied.exe) and encrypted it. Many anti virus softwares are being over protected of their user and trowing a false report simple because it can't be for sure Is just being predigest towards my file. I wrote it on my PC and I asure you there is NO VIRUS OR SPYWARE. How ever Check my post I will update with a second link for a NON AIO and maybee that will fix the false report. Thanks for your Help on this mater.
UPDATE I just tested the NON AIO with "Clamwin" and it did throw the "Trojan Qhost-165" Bogus waring so I built the NON AIO and it scanned free with "Clamwin". Might if I get time post this info on a website or wiki.
Does it HAVE to be an exe? A page on the wiki would work as well ya know.
Jeroen wrote:
Does it HAVE to be an exe? A page on the wiki would work as well ya know.
Well, if and when I get time I might do a page on Wiki . The .exe work as well to ya know and its complete safe and 100% compatible to run on any system. If you truely dont trust me or my program download
http://www.sandboxie.com and run it in there.....but wait its a .exe file too........oh no. I rereleased a NON Compressed non encrypted AIO file that has passed Clamwin and every other Antivirus program please use that one. I assure you both programs are safe.
dmtgamepack wrote:
The .exe work as well to ya know and its complete safe and 100% compatible to run on any system.
Including Mac OS X and Ubuntu Linux? I have a cousin who runs Ubuntu on his PC, and I have an ex-uncle who tried
Puppy after his Windows XP barfed and is planning to install Ubuntu within the next week.
Quote:
I rereleased a NON Compressed non encrypted AIO file that has passed Clamwin
Glad to see I'm not the only person who has discovered that Norton and McAfee are a waste of RAM, time, and money. As for me and my house, we will schedule a weekly scan in ClamWin.
Hi dmtgamepack
Interesting mod instructions.
I assume that FC2 is a small Ferrite Core/Bead (FC = Ferrite Core?), I can buy these at an electronics supplier for approximately $0.20c, they look identical to your picture.
Do you have the part number of the transistor Q1? (Q = Transistor).
If that can be sourced, an original model NES would not need to be sacrificed for the sake of one component.
Regards.
chaoticjelly wrote:
Hi dmtgamepack
Interesting mod instructions.
I assume that FC2 is a small Ferrite Core/Bead (FC = Ferrite Core?), I can buy these at an electronics supplier for approximately $0.20c, they look identical to your picture.
Do you have the part number of the transistor Q1? (Q = Transistor).
If that can be sourced, an original model NES would not need to be sacrificed for the sake of one component.
Regards.
I don't know if you can find a sub for Q1 or not. I am not a expert at electronics like the others on here are Im just a beginner- novice who was able to do this great mod with the help of the user on here and shared what worked for me in a guide. If you find a sub for Q1 please report back and I can add it to the guide. I bought my Losse NES 1 for only $5 bucks at my local Flea Market. He's got a stack of them for only $5 each so it wasn't to heart breaking to rip one apart for me. But I do understand who it could be for some. So report back. Thanks for your Input
DmtGamePack
Hi dmtgamepack and chaoticjelly
No, you don't need to get parts from a NES1 to do this mod.
The NES2 alredy has the 2 parts you are looking for.
The video amplification transistor, (marked as Q1 in the NES2) is a 2SA937. It is the same transistor they used in the NES1. There is also a ferrite core in the NES2, but it is hidden by the heat sink of the voltage regulator, so most people don't know it's even there.
Additionally, you need to understand that this mod, doesn't remove all of the banding from a TV, just most of it. Primarily because it doesn't address the underlying problems of the system. An interference pattern whih primary frequency of about 600kHz
John Walcott wrote:
Additionally, you need to understand that this mod, doesn't remove all of the banding from a TV, just most of it. Primarily because it doesn't address the underlying problems of the system. An interference pattern whih primary frequency of about 600kHz
What are these underlying problems, exactly? Just the design of the PPU and video circuitry in general? My AV Famicom even has some vertical lines, albeit much fainter than the NES2's.
John Walcott wrote:
Hi dmtgamepack and chaoticjelly
No, you don't need to get parts from a NES1 to do this mod.
The NES2 alredy has the 2 parts you are looking for.
And have you confirmed that it will work harvesting the Q1 from the NES2 leaving the open circuit and still be able to work?
As for the lines I don't see any after doing this mod it looks very clean and sharp. I was so bugged by the old lines on my NES2 I refused to play games on it and used my NES1 untill I did this mod now the picture is very clear. I own 2 NES 2 right now one with this mod and one that isn't moded yet. When I get a TV capture card on my PC I will take some screen shots of before and after and post them. I tried a Digtal camera but it didn't work to good taking picture of the screen.
Thanks for your Help and Input. As soon as you confirm that remvoing the Q1 from the NES2 and re use it on the video amp board then I will at it to my guide.
THanks
dmtgamepack wrote:
John Walcott wrote:
Hi dmtgamepack and chaoticjelly
No, you don't need to get parts from a NES1 to do this mod.
The NES2 alredy has the 2 parts you are looking for.
And have you confirmed that it will work harvesting the Q1 from the NES2 leaving the open circuit and still be able to work?
As for the lines I don't see any after doing this mod it looks very clean and sharp. I was so bugged by the old lines on my NES2 I refused to play games on it and used my NES1 untill I did this mod now the picture is very clear. I own 2 NES 2 right now one with this mod and one that isn't moded yet. When I get a TV capture card on my PC I will take some screen shots of before and after and post them. I tried a Digtal camera but it didn't work to good taking picture of the screen.
Thanks for your Help and Input. As soon as you confirm that remvoing the Q1 from the NES2 and re use it on the video amp board then I will at it to my guide.
THanks
The part are used for the video circuit so taking them for building an alternative video circuit is not a problem.
In other word, Yes it is confirmed to work.
very intresting 3d, I'd like to own a toploader but I'm in Italy and for now I have got a NES PAL and a AVFamicom.
so I'd like to mod it
ciao
yea i am bringing up a dead topic from the grave.
I just completed the circuit mod and have had issue with it staying on. The system will work for a while but then will just cut off (video and audio). I have made sure there is no grounding out, so I guess its the circuit. Now I have followed the in the instruction outlined in the program above, with one minor difference. Where it says to use a 560 pf 6.3 cap, i used a 561 pf cap. do you think this is causing my problem?
thanks for any help.
I guess I'll just ask a question about this as well: Is there any way I can do the mod and keep the RF working?
I already have all the components (which means I don't need to take any from the NES itself), but the instructions say that PPU pin 21 has to be lifted, which would kill the existing video circuit. Does anyone know how to do this?
I think i have figured out my problem. The plate in the back isn't an RF shield like I thought it was. It is a heat sink. It makes all makes sense. Even the AV Famicom has one and that doesn't have a RF output. Once I put it back on, it has run great for 15 hours in a stress test. Just got to check on it when I get home from work.
I originally took it off because I needed room for the AV jacks. Now I can make a minor cut out to it to allow it to fit together correctly.
Just wanted to post this in case it might help somebody.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVHCzaJ95sk
Hey its on you tube!!! This is the first Thank YOU I got for my guide. Over 300 downloads and not 1 single Thank you email. Took me days to put that guide together. Anways hope it helps lots of people.
I can confirm that it works. I used different parts so i didnt have to break apart a toaster.
Hello, just wanted to revive this thread again to say thanks to darthcloud for the schematic and dmtgamepack for the walk through guide. I've been reading through the forum and this thread in particular. I recently completed the mod on my nes2 after harvesting the Q1,FC2, and av jacks from a junk nes1. I placed the jacks and circuit board where the RF box used to be for aesthetics and convenience. I read after the fact that having the circuit close to the power supply could be problematic but I've been using the new mod and everything works great and I don't see any lines or other problems.
The following link contains some pictures of the mod, thanks again.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/trublu832/sets/72157625833777086/
Am i correct to see that you used the FC2? I didn't include that part in mine circuit. If i have the time i'll build another circuit with the FC to see if my picture is improving.
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/4/21/1876835//NewVideoAmp.jpg
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/4/21/1876835//NES2ComposhitShot.jpg
Made a small transistor based buffer and I'm getting video that's comparable with what my front loader does.
The video output signal seems to be quite sensitive to noise, final tidied up version should yeld slightly better result
I also removed all the LPF caps
TmEE wrote:
Made a small transistor based buffer and I'm getting video that's comparable with what my front loader does.
Could you provide detailed instructions and an schematic? Your mod looks simple and efficient.
Cut off PPU video signal output from the rest of the NES and feed it into the input of the buffer. Output signal can be fed to any TV and should work nicely. I used 56ohm resistor on the output to get the brightness down.
Thanks. I might try that. What I really want though is a solution that allows the RF to keep working... Why is it that nobody ever made such a mod? I mean, the original console has both connections, so what's the problem?
tokumaru wrote:
Thanks. I might try that. What I really want though is a solution that allows the RF to keep working... Why is it that nobody ever made such a mod? I mean, the original console has both connections, so what's the problem?
There's nothing stopping you from routing the output of this mod back to the input of the r/f modulator, I think a few ppl here did try it, but you'll have to read this whole thread to find them. You may not be alone though so give it a try and post your results!
I think you may just need to avoid feeding the signal back in anywhere except right at the r/f modulator input pin and possibly cut the trace leading to it, even then I wouldn't gurantee a bars free picture.
I was thinking there might still be some improvement possible on the quality of the video output of the NES and NES2, but never gave it much attention until I ran accross an amp circuit found in the datasheet of opa350.
I still have not gotten perfect color out of it IMO compared to the darthcloud/toaster amp. One of my biggest concerns is C5 should read pF instead of uF, but its only a guess, since its 1000 units. Also concerned I used electrolytics when I should have used ceramics, but 1000uF ceramic doesn't seem to exist or is to expensive to put in place, same with C1 at 220uF. Even with electro's I had to take Rg from 1K down to around 120 to get a decent image. Also Rout and Rload don't have values, but all they did was darken my image more.
I tried to convert the circuit diagram from pdf to a jpg image, but i'm not good at it and its hard to read so I won't post it.
akaviolence wrote:
There's nothing stopping you from routing the output of this mod back to the input of the r/f modulator
Really? After all the modifications you've done to it?
From my buffer setup the signal will probably have to be attenuated slightly more for the RF modulator to like it. I cannot test it anymore since the modulator is no longer in working condition.
EDIT:
More or less cleaned up version... only thing left is routing video out nicely on the back of the system. The buffered signal won't pick up any meaningful noise, its rather low impedance.
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/4/21/1876835//BufferNearClean.jpg
TV shot, very faint lines are seem, much like frontloader :
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/4/21/1876835//FelixShot2.jpg
Using the guide from dmtgamepack I made this guide:
http://www.dutchretrogamer.nl/nes2_avmod_eng.html
I used different parts but I got a picture that similar to the toaster.
If you see errors on it, please let me know.
Darkenrha, does the RF still work with your mod? I'm asking because I don't see anything about disconnecting PPU pin 21 from the existing circuit...
1) Why did you use a 1/8" audio jack to drive audio (mono) and video? Surely I'm not the only one who thinks this is an accident waiting to happen, specifically because of the assignment of Left to video...
2) I would strongly suggest using two RCA connectors (they do make "duals" that are plate/face-mountable). Use a white (not red!) RCA jack to indicate mono audio, and use a yellow RCA jack to indicate composite video. This is per CEA-863-A standard.
3) If you continue to use a 1/8" audio jack, be aware that per standard, you're supposed to assign mono audio to the left channel/pin, and {whatever you want} to the right. Currently you have have the opposite: video going to the left pin, audio going to the right. Which leads me to...
4) Your doc says: "the red (R) is the sound and the white (L) is the video" -- there is no white used. You chose blue wires and you use blue in your visuals.
5) Finally, in one part of your doc you refer to the connector as a "phone jack". It is not a phone jack. Possibly you meant phono jack -- but it's not a phono jack either. :-) Referring to it as a "jack" is sufficient.
koitsu wrote:
1) Why did you use a 1/8" audio jack to drive audio (mono) and video? Surely I'm not the only one who thinks this is an accident waiting to happen, specifically because of the assignment of Left to video...
I've seen a few unlicensed handhelds doing that, and maybe it's a reasonable solution when there's not much space. I don't know about left/right conventions though.
Quote:
4) Your doc says: "the red (R) is the sound and the white (L) is the video" -- there is no white used. You chose blue wires and you use blue in your visuals.
I think he means the red and white of the cable you'd use to plug into the console... Cables with that plug commonly have white and red plugs on the other end.
Quote:
5) Finally, in one part of your doc you refer to the connector as a "phone jack". It is not a phone jack. Possibly you meant phono jack -- but it's not a phono jack either.
Referring to it as a "jack" is sufficient.
Yeah, English is clearly not his first language, so there are indeed some hard to follow parts. I don't know where he's from, but in Portuguese for example, earphones are called "fones", so its an understandable mistake.
tokumaru wrote:
Darkenrha, does the RF still work with your mod? I'm asking because I don't see anything about disconnecting PPU pin 21 from the existing circuit...
Yes the RF will still work. I never liked desoldering parts.
koitsu wrote:
1) Why did you use a 1/8" audio jack to drive audio (mono) and video? Surely I'm not the only one who thinks this is an accident waiting to happen, specifically because of the assignment of Left to video...
Like Tokumaru says it takes less room because it is a small console.
Quote:
2) I would strongly suggest using two RCA connectors (they do make "duals" that are plate/face-mountable). Use a white (not red!) RCA jack to indicate mono audio, and use a yellow RCA jack to indicate composite video. This is per CEA-863-A standard.
I just thought it was less confusing because on the toaster the red is the sound. But I see your point. I didn't know that white was the mono.
Quote:
3) If you continue to use a 1/8" audio jack, be aware that per standard, you're supposed to assign mono audio to the left channel/pin, and {whatever you want} to the right. Currently you have have the opposite: video going to the left pin, audio going to the right. Which leads me to...
4) Your doc says: "the red (R) is the sound and the white (L) is the video" -- there is no white used. You chose blue wires and you use blue in your visuals.
Just like Tokumaru said: I mean the cable connectors. I will explain it better on the guide.
Quote:
5) Finally, in one part of your doc you refer to the connector as a "phone jack". It is not a phone jack. Possibly you meant phono jack -- but it's not a phono jack either.
Referring to it as a "jack" is sufficient.
I'm sorry that's a translation error. I used google translate for my site. I'm from the Netherlands and my english writing is not so good.
I thank you for your reacties. End please give feedback so I can improve my site. I will correct the phone bit and give info about the colors of the connectors.
tokumaru wrote:
I don't know about left/right conventions though.
The convention I've seen on an Aiptek camcorder is to use a 3.5 mm TRRS (4 conductor) connector, put audio on the tip and first ring (left and right respectively, not that it matters on the NES), put composite video on the second ring, and ground it on the sleeve. The convention on the other end of the cable is to use red and white RCA plugs for the audio and yellow for the video.
tepples wrote:
tokumaru wrote:
I don't know about left/right conventions though.
The convention I've seen on an Aiptek camcorder is to use a 3.5 mm TRRS (4 conductor) connector, put audio on the tip and first ring (left and right respectively, not that it matters on the NES), put composite video on the second ring, and ground it on the sleeve. The convention on the other end of the cable is to use red and white RCA plugs for the audio and yellow for the video.
I was thinking of using that one for other consoles but there is no standard for it. Different companies have different pinout's. I've seen it on this site:
http://pinoutsguide.com/connector/2_pin ... ctor.shtml
OK I'm going to mod my top loader NES, not because of the quality but just because I have no sound with RF, and I'd like to mode it so I can get some damn sound with it.
Something I completely DONT understand is why everybody ignores what r73942 said on page 4 :
Quote:
I don't know if anyone has a better way of fixing the vertical line distortion in the top-loading NES, but I recently recuced it in mine by about 90-95%. My method, unfortunately, does require making a couple of cuts on the board, which I dreaded doing, but it was necessary for the mod. The problem is that the video signal coming out of the PPU is getting interference from the address/data lines, mainly AD7, since the pathways are so close together. Here's how to fix it:
1) Find the pathway on the top side of the board connecting pin 21 of the PPU to Q1.
2) VERY CAREFULLY, cut this pathway as close to the PPU pin 21 as possible. BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO CUT THE ADJACENT PATHWAYS! Use an ohm-meter to make sure it's cut all the way through.
3) Now cut it as close to Q1 as possible. This is important! If you don't cut it at both ends, it will act like an antenna and thus not eliminating the interference. Make sure it's completely cut.
4) Look on the bottom of the board and find Q1. There's a pathway coming off of the front pin of Q1 leading to a test point near the power switch.
5) Connect a wire from PPU pin 21 to this test point. I recommend running the wire in an "S" fashion, coming off pin 21 at an angle following the diagonal +5V pathway there, then come around along the small ground plane going through the middle pin of Q2, then back along the next +5V pathway up to the test point.
If you did this correctly, you should now have a nice clear picture.
Quote:
Oh, yeah. I figured I'd mention this while I'm at it. Many people believe that adding AV jacks to the top-loading NES requires an additional transistor for the cideo signal. This is not true; Q1, when properly wired, can amplify the video signal sufficiently.
So everyone insisted FOR SIX PAGES to add an external amplification circuit when the source of the "problem" is just interference between the PPU and Q1 with the D7 line.
Another problem : I want to remove the RF box (which is totally useless for me since I get white noise instead of sound out of it) but I just can't ! I tried everything i could this damn thing won't move, let alone let itself being removed off the board. I guess I'll have to drill a new hole instead of using the existing ones as I planned to do.
Last thing : I wanted to do the sound mod to get external audio on powerpak, but unfortunately the expansion sound used for that DOES NOT EXIST !!
Thanks god other expansion pins exists (they are just left unused), so it should be possible to get external audio with powerpak on a toploader if a version that sends it to another pin would be made.
Bregalad wrote:
OK I'm going to mod my top loader NES, not because of the quality but just because I have no sound with RF, and I'd like to mode it so I can get some damn sound with it.
Modding it may not fix the problem. You can check to see if the RF modulator is the audio problem by touching an audio plug to the audio input pin of the modulator, like
this.
If you get audio then yes the modulator failed, if not look elsewhere, i've found corroded traces by the cart connector causing such an issue, like
this.
Bregalad wrote:
Something I completely DONT understand is why everybody ignores what r73942 said on page 4 :
I've tried this and was not successful at completely eliminating the interference, but lifting or cutting pin 21 and getting it off the board works every time.
Bregalad wrote:
Another problem : I want to remove the RF box (which is totally useless for me since I get white noise instead of sound out of it) but I just can't ! I tried everything i could this damn thing won't move, let alone let itself being removed off the board. I guess I'll have to drill a new hole instead of using the existing ones as I planned to do.
I remove them all the time, yes its rather difficult. I use a solder sucker to free the 3 pins feeding audio, video, and power to the modulator, then I cut the 3 mount/ground tabs as flush as I can and push them down with a hot soldering iron enough to a hold of the RF box with pliers and twist and yank it out.
I also use a great little headphone style connector as an A/V jack that fits right into the old RF jack hole. Looks great,
pic1,
pic2,
pic3.
Quote:
Modding it may not fix the problem. You can check to see if the RF modulator is the audio problem by touching an audio plug to the audio input pin of the modulator, like this.
Sorry I didn't mention the problem was that I live in europe and that my TV decodes sounds like if it was modulated by european RF standard instead of american RF standard, which results in horrible white noise being played when the video is ok.
But thanks for the advice of the cinch input pin testing, this looks like a clever quick way to test if everything is ok.
Quote:
I also use a great little headphone style connector as an A/V jack that fits right into the old RF jack hole. Looks great, pic1, pic2, pic3.
That's exactly what I planned to do. Unfortunately it's really hard to remove that stupid RF box so maybe I'll have to drill an extra hole for it (and that'll look ugly
).
I can't remove it because of the "mount/grounds" tabs which are impossible to heat up enough to suck its solder (not with my soldering iron at least) and it's impossible to cut the pin either !
Also the plastic thing abouve the jacks won't move even though I removed the screws, I don't know why ! I think it's somehow glued to the AC jack so I'd have to disolder it, which I tried too but failed because again the pints were too huge to I couldn't remove all the solder (only part of it).
Quote:
I've tried this and was not successful at completely eliminating the interference, but lifting or cutting pin 21 and getting it off the board works every time.
Belive it or not, a completely unmodded NTSC toploader looks ALOT better than the (only) PAL NES. The "walking ants" porblem at each discontinuities are SO much more noticeable in PAL, than the vertical lines on my NTSC toploader are preferable (I never had an USA frontloader nor a famicom so I can't tell by how much it'd be even better).
Anyway even if it removes them but not completely I'd still be happy. Adding extra transistors doesn't sound any necessary to me.
Yeah I don't even try to suck the solder off the mounts tabs, just the input pins. I simply use a hot soldering iron to heat one tab up enough to push it down as far as it will go then do the other. I dont even mess with the tab closest to the edge, it will break free on its own when you pry and twist the mod unit out with needle nose pliers. Also, all this can be done without removing the screws that hold the plastic piece down, yes its also integrated into the power port and that would have to be desoldered as well in order to get it off the board entirely.
OK I was eventually able to remove this stupid RF box and do the mod.
Now I eventually get audio out of my toploader NES ! Unfortunately the video doesn't work any longer. All I can see is a bunch of dark pales colors going constantly up slowly.
So I suppose the other guy was wrong when he said that the video signal was sufficiently amplified... looks like another amplifier will be needed
I'm unsure if the voltage, the current or both should be amplified.
I'll look how I'll do that but if I need to add an extra breadboard I'll have a hard time finding room for it and fixing it properly.
What do you mean by dark pales colors going constantly up slowly. Please elaborate.
For example when I plug a Wizards & Warrior II cartridges instead of having the pictures of the knight showing, I get a bunch of dark blue (that is in the shape of the knight, but much darker) and it scrolls on the TV in the up direction (that's typically a sync problem).
So my theory is that this is caused by the signal being too weak so that the TV can't detect the negative VBLank levels, and that the positive levels for colors are way too dark.
That makes sense. Do you have an old monitor you can hook it up to, to see if it can pick up any signal? It does sound like a under power issue and you probably need a amplifier.
Quote:
Do you have an old monitor you can hook it up to, to see if it can pick up any signal?
Nope, my old monitors only supports PAL signals and via R/F anyways.
Also I think it's odd the signal is too weak, because normally the PPU outputs directly the correct voltage, and the common collector amp with Q1 should make the signal strong enough to be loaded by a cable.
I'm not sure if this is possible but can you take a voltmeter and see if the voltage is even near correct? If its correct you could then test whats coming out of the cable and compare the results.
The signal changes WAY too fast for a multimeter to properly sample it.
Hmm i do see your point. I'm guessing that because 60Hz it changes too fast. What if the amp has failed? Can you use an oscilloscope to test?
It CHANGES faster then 60 hz....each pixel is at least 2 changes.
Don't worry I have two oscilloscopes that can deal with that.
However I'm unsure what the amplitude of the signal is SUPPOSED to be.
According to the schematic on NESdev main page, the PPU is already supposed to output a signal of the correct (voltage) amplitude, the transistor is just here to amplify the current. So unless the transistor or some other component fails, I see no reason how this signal could be insufficiently amplified. However I'm no expert in this so I don't know really.
Jeroen wrote:
It CHANGES faster then 60 hz....each pixel is at least 2 changes.
Woah at least 114,688 changes for a whole screen? Didnt know it was that fast.
If your multimeter has a setting for testing if a wire is whole or something like that you can test if any traces are broken.
Dont they usually look like diode symbols?
Bregalad wrote:
Don't worry I have two oscilloscopes that can deal with that.
However I'm unsure what the amplitude of the signal is SUPPOSED to be.
According to the schematic on NESdev main page, the PPU is already supposed to output a signal of the correct (voltage) amplitude, the transistor is just here to amplify the current. So unless the transistor or some other component fails, I see no reason how this signal could be insufficiently amplified. However I'm no expert in this so I don't know really.
You sure your o-scopes fast enough
(lots aren't)...Kevtris did some work on the voltage levels. I think he said that with the proper video circuit it pretty much falls exactly into the boundaries the voltages should be in. (ask him?)
My oscilloscope is supposed to go up to 50Mhz (in analog mode, because it has a digital more which required for slow signals).
Anyways measuring at about 60Hz is enough to view the VBlanks every ~17ms, and this negative spike is about 0.4 V below the ground it seems. I have no idea whenever this is normal, I'll measure this again and compare it with the amplitude directly at the output of the PPU. Both should normally match I think.
Bregalad wrote:
Anyways measuring at about 60Hz is enough to view the VBlanks every ~17ms, and this negative spike is about 0.4 V below the ground it seems. I have no idea whenever this is normal, I'll measure this again and compare it with the amplitude directly at the output of the PPU. Both should normally match I think.
-0.3 to -0.4V into 75 ohms is correct sync levels for NTSC.
Bregalad wrote:
My oscilloscope is supposed to go up to 50Mhz (in analog mode, because it has a digital more which required for slow signals).
Anyways measuring at about 60Hz is enough to view the VBlanks every ~17ms, and this negative spike is about 0.4 V below the ground it seems. I have no idea whenever this is normal, I'll measure this again and compare it with the amplitude directly at the output of the PPU. Both should normally match I think.
As in negative voltage? That would definitly cause syncing issues I think.
edit: nevermind apparently thats normal according to the above post.
OK to fix my problem what I had to do (thanks to my dad for his advice !!) is :
- Remove the RF box and replace it by AV jack (what I already did the other day)
- Replace R1 by a 120 ohm resistor
- Replace R2 by a 68 ohm resistor
- Remove R3
- Do what rt9342 says at the end of page 4
Works great. No external board needed.
dmtgamepack wrote:
Hello, I have successful did this mod on my NES2 with perfect results. I also did the Stereo mod at the same time and mange to get every thing to fit really nice. I have written a very detailed guide using “Autoplay Media Studio” It’s a AIO program that is very easy to use just download and open. Then follow the instructions on your screen. I have included lots and lots of very detailed pictures and a parts and tool list of every thing you need to do this. Tips and detailed instruction for every step in this mod. I tried to make the guide Idiot Proof. This guide is written more for the amateur / beginner. This guide has everything from harvesting the Need component parts from the NES 1 toaster to building the Video Amp board and even mounting the RCA or 3.5 Jack.
It is 7.51 MB file size mainly due to the Detailed Pictures taking up that space.
Download here: Removed because no one used it and it expired!! Use the NON AIO link instea its still good
BOTH FILES ARE SAFE AND ARE THE SAME JUST ONE ISN"T A AIODue to some False Antivirus reports because its a self contained encrypted archive .exe. I have now released a NON AIO version you can (Just download it> Unzip it> Open folder> And open autorun.exe.
DOWNLOAD NON AIO HERE:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/k21bpmBOTH PROGRAMS DO THE SAME THING AND ARE BOTH SAFESample Pictures below of this guide:
I finally got round to modding a Top Loader NES with the guide above, however I have hit some troubles with it. In case it helps, I have a US Top Loader and I am based in the UK (PAL TVs etc)
Following the guide above, the AV out gives me the following picture quality:
Not only are all the colours really dark (doesn't show too well in the pictures unless you look at the clouds), but the mod seems to really struggle with the colour black. When you go onto the screen which tells you how many lives Mario has, the TV loses signal and shows a black screen and the AV channel number I'm currently on.
To add to that, as the first picture and third picture shows, any areas with a lot of black that doesn't result in a blank screen seems to distort horizontally.
To my knowledge I have followed the guide perfectly, however the results (as shown) suggest otherwise. I'm hoping someone can quickly point out the error, as it's beyond me
cauterize wrote:
Not only are all the colours really dark (doesn't show too well in the pictures unless you look at the clouds), but the mod seems to really struggle with the colour black.
Well, this is probably a direct result of the colors being too dark. Black becomes "blacker than black", i.e. goes below the valid voltage range of black, and in to the sync range, distorting the display.
Got the same result in the 90s. You need to agree on the AV yield with 75 ohm input. Just a cascade transistor with a common collector.
HardWareMan wrote:
Got the same result in the 90s. You need to agree on the AV yield with 75 ohm input. Just a cascade transistor with a common collector.
Please could you elaborate a bit further to someone who doesn't understand the mods too much? Where exactly will I be soldering this resistor?
Hi guys!
I thought I'd share some AV modding that we over att Famicomworld are experimenting with. Maybe some of you could try the same on your toploaders since the old Famicom and toploader are basicly the same machine.
http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index ... pic=4713.0
The is the schematics we're currently using
For the trasistor - reusing the one in your NES/Famicom is the best from what I have found out. It needs to be desoldered and the trace from PPU #21 needs to be cut or removed completely. (As stated earlier in this thread)
Build the new circuit on a separate board and connect PPU #21 and the new composite circuit with a
shielded cable to minimize video interference.
Next you need to add a 47uF - 100uF capacistor between PPU #22 (SYNC) and #20 (GND) <-- This is like magic and removes - if not all, most of the vertical bars.
I've done this on several Famicoms with good result. Some machines give more jailbars then others and with the cap over #22-#20 they dissapear or become wery faint depending on how much interference there is.
Maybe we could support each other.
So what happens if you only add the cap?
edit: so I was talking to kevtris in #nesdev about this heres what he had to say:
Quote:
<@kevtris>
http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electron ... hp?id=2405<+jero32>
http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electron ... hp?id=2405 this one you mea...you got it already
<@kevtris> first page of the schematic
<@kevtris> where it says "VIDEO" on the left
<@kevtris> goes thru a 10uf cap, 330 ohm resistor, etc.
<@kevtris> you do not put in Q1, that's for the modulator
<@kevtris> just need Q2
<@kevtris> on the PCB shows a 2SA937 and a 510 ohm resistor and a ferrite bead with a 330pf to ground
<@kevtris> that's what connects to pin 1 of the modulator
<+jero32> whats that thingie right before teh first branch in the line?
<@kevtris> cap
<+jero32> the one that leads to q1
<+jero32> ah
<@kevtris> though I am not sure if mine has that cap, actually
* hcs (
~agashlin@76.91.93.132) has joined #nesdev
<@kevtris> I don't remember any caps in the line
<+jero32> looks like it says 10/32?
<@kevtris> 10/35
<@kevtris> 10uf, 35V
<@kevtris> there is an unmarked cap, across the 3.3uh inductor
<@kevtris> prolly 100pf or so
<+jero32> I"m gonna post that in the thread real quick
<+jero32> unless you want to
<@kevtris> the cap to ground on video out is probably 100pf or so too and isn't really required
<@kevtris> you can
Apparently this is the actual circuit used in the actual nes...so maybe that'll help.
Also thanks to Kevtris for the extra info like the 100pf cap. (read the log people!)
Can anyone please tell me what the ohms of the resistor you cut from this
http://www.gamesx.com/rgbadd/nes2avmod.htm guide? Thanks in advance!
Quote:
http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schemview.php?id=2405
I have a couple sets of those schematics from a hamfest. I don't know much about electronics except that my father said they're very wrong and spent a couple days adding changes to the ones we have to make them right.
Bregalad wrote:
OK I'm going to mod my top loader NES, not because of the quality but just because I have no sound with RF, and I'd like to mode it so I can get some damn sound with it.
Something I completely DONT understand is why everybody ignores what r73942 said on page 4
Hey Bregalad,
I got my hands on another Top Loader, and I decided to do a clean AV mod on it. I initially did r73942's mod, and then your mod (including the resistor values both you and r73942 used). In both cases, faint vertical lines can still be seen on an NTSC system.
In fact, with your mod and resistor values, the video is too bright. It washes out the colors with NTSC. Using r73942's resistor values + adding the 220uF cap instead of R2 made the colors really nice. It's 1 shade darker than front loader, but looks sharper (but faint lines can still be seen)
I tested the video quality using SMB1. It's probably the most brutal game in showing you the faint lines right away (the blue sky).
I think the issue is with the video amp being where it is. It's still picking up noise from somewhere between the PPU and it (which is crazy, because I got a single wire going directly from pin 21 to amp in my hack, with the wire being off the PCB, in the air!).
As much as I try, it seems having an external amp is the only way to go.
Will try this tomorrow.
The videonoise does not come from the PPU or the datalines nearby.
Without a cartridge there are no noise in the motherboard while powered on. But when you insert a gamecart something produce heavy noise on the powerline affecting CPU, PPU and Xtal and as a result of this noise, vertical lines appears.
Possible solutions to this is to use a GOOD power-supply with as little noise in it as possible. Then replace powerline caps inside the NES for bigger and better ones. Adding a few extra caps between GND and power also helps.
The downside with a good powersupply is that its get big and heavy.
Da Bear wrote:
The videonoise does not come from the PPU or the datalines nearby.
Without a cartridge there are no noise in the motherboard while powered on. But when you insert a gamecart something produce heavy noise on the powerline affecting CPU, PPU and Xtal and as a result of this noise, vertical lines appears.
Is this a guess, or do you have some testing you've done that you can share? Have you been able to remove the noise by not modifying the video amp circuitry?
I have borrowed an oscilloscope to do some testing. Have not had much time to test but that's what I have found so far.
EDIT: Even the original NES have vertical lines and issues with powernoise. But because of a different board design, slightly different onboard power supply and some sort of XTAL (Does not know what it does) inside the RF unit the lines are very very faint.
Da Bear wrote:
The videonoise does not come from the PPU or the datalines nearby.
Without a cartridge there are no noise in the motherboard while powered on. But when you insert a gamecart something produce heavy noise on the powerline affecting CPU, PPU and Xtal and as a result of this noise, vertical lines appears.
Possible solutions to this is to use a GOOD power-supply with as little noise in it as possible. Then replace powerline caps inside the NES for bigger and better ones. Adding a few extra caps between GND and power also helps.
The downside with a good powersupply is that its get big and heavy.
MOAR!!!
Quote:
something produce heavy noise
Quote:
something
Epic
If someone will tell you to cut traces or desolder transistor... well here is lots of "experts" floating around making this(i saved this image and will reupload, if owner will delete original). Wait, 100pF ceramic capacitors on power lines? facepalm.jpg
instead of
this On this PCB sound wiring was not finished at moment, when i took photo. SMD capacitors are 10uF. And this is not final revision.
AGAIN. DO NOT CUT ANY TRACES. YOU DON'T HAVE TO.
80sFREAK:
I'm having difficulty understanding what you're trying to say. Some of your sentences have gramatical errors. Are you suggesting that what's in the image is what one has to do!??
Rest:
I build the external circuit as suggested on top of page 10. I tried to run the wires as cleanly as possible, minimizing lengths, minimizing noise. I still was not able to rid of the lines.
I then decided to compare to the front loader. To my surprise, my front loader also had lines!! (DAMN LCD TV's!!! They show all the flaws in systems made for CRT!) Here's how I compare a modified top loader to a front loader (giving up at this point unless someone figures out how to rid of noise in front loader as well!)
Front Loader AV (connected to LCD TV):
- faint lines (about 30-35 across the screen)
- somewhat noisy output (TV shows some diagonal faint lines running)
Top Loader AV (same TV):
- faint lines (same as front loader a tad more pronounced then the front loader)
- no diagonal noise
- color perfect to the front loader
- volume about 80% of the front loader! (have to bring volume up to play same game)
Anyone have similar findings?
80sFREAK:
leonk wrote:
80sFREAK:
I'm having difficulty understanding what you're trying to say. Some of your sentences have gramatical errors.
so what?
Quote:
Are you suggesting that what's in the image is what one has to do!??
Let's make long story short - we have a bunch of
nMOS IC'c(exception 74LS139 and 74LS373) ,tiny 10nF ceramic capacitors on power lines and fancy grounding layout. Ground does not mean zero potencial. That's why, for example, Hi-Fi audiosystems have grounding as "star".
2 Da Bear you forgot "magic word". I don't, so PLEASE, DO NOT bother me with your PM's. Ok? Good.
P.S. Nothing personal. NOTHING.
P.P.S. And no, i am not troll.
leonk wrote:
80sFREAK:
I'm having difficulty understanding what you're trying to say. Some of your sentences have gramatical errors. Are you suggesting that what's in the image is what one has to do!??
NO! Don't wire it up as in the picture.
That is an image of my trial-and-error Famicom board.
Apparently 80sFRAK thinks that is how I AV Mod my Famicoms.
At first I did cut the trace from PPU #21 to Q1 transistor as it did help (Se my post higher up on this page). But later on I have started to leave all traces intact and instead make the lines fainter with a different method.
I have never showed anyone how I do "my" AV Mod in Famicoms, and with this person lurking around I'm having hard doubts that I ever will.
And if I manage to completely get rid of the vertical lines (Hardly
), I will share the knowledge with only a few selected thanks to 80sFREAK being a jerk - not only here but over at Famicomworld to.
http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index ... #msg108337leonk wrote:
Rest:
I build the external circuit as suggested on top of page 10. I tried to run the wires as cleanly as possible, minimizing lengths, minimizing noise. I still was not able to rid of the lines.
That's because the noise is already in the powerline getting into the videocircuit. Iif you manage to clean up the power, the lines will go away.
All NES2/Famicom have less or more noise in them and that is why everyone see different results. I have AV modded over 50 Famicom's and regardless of revision they all produce different amount of vertical lines. Some are very bad, and some of them don't show any lines at all.
leonk wrote:
I then decided to compare to the front loader. To my surprise, my front loader also had lines!! (DAMN LCD TV's!!! They show all the flaws in systems made for CRT!) Here's how I compare a modified top loader to a front loader (giving up at this point unless someone figures out how to rid of noise in front loader as well!)
[..]
Anyone have similar findings?
As I said previously; "Even the original NES have vertical lines and issues with powernoise. But because of a different board design, slightly different onboard power supply and some sort of XTAL (Does not know what it does) inside the RF unit the lines are very very faint."
And as if that is not enough, the AV Famicom that everyone claims to be "perfect" is NOT perfect. That one also has noise in it, not so much as the NES2/Famicom but it's still there.
I don't understand the clash between the various members, but I think the theory that the noise is due from the power supply at least makes some sense.
Mixing analog and digital signals is always a hassle and if the power supply is not well filtered (that is, a capacity needs to be present very close to the VDD and GND of every digial IC) it can lead to problems.
Sorry to Dig up an old Topic,
But there appears to be so much mixed information i thought i would throw in my bit.
I attempted the video Amp located here on page 8 by dmtgamepack
Worked perfectly, no issue no lines no jail-bars no distortion i actually got a better picture then what i got out of my toaster AV.
Done this to 3 units all with the same result, however i used a 4pol 3.5m to 3x RCA
I did notice if you use to short twisted pair (from cat 5) you would get a little picture distortion.
I also noticed if you put your amp to close to the PSU you will get even more.
I mounted my on the metal plate in front of the cart slot right hand side.
A++++ nice work mate.
Some random crap I found online today:
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthr ... ical-lineshttp://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthr ... ines/page2The individual in the thread makes no effort to explain what "lineless mod" means (subsequent Google queries for that term turn up absolutely nothing), sadly.
Only reason I bring this up is that it sounds like from the description the Famicom AV has the same "banding" problem as the NES toploader, which would mean the crux of the issue has to do with general interference/noise somewhere on the board (remember: NES toploader is RF-only, Famicom AV is composite-only).
The 'lineless' mod he is speaking of is probably just rebuilding the amp and lifting pin 21 on the ppu. I've done this on over 12 top loaders now and while it appears to remove the vertical lines on the nes, you see that they are still there if you turn up your sharpness high enough, but they aren't really visible in most games unless you're looking for them.
I've tried powering the PPU by going straight from the regulator, to a pi filter, to the ppu and still get the vertical lines. If it's power interference, I don't know where it's coming from =/.
Does cutting pin 21 make a big difference vs soldering a wire to the contact on the bottom?? I followed Darkenrha's tutorial (
http://www.dutchretrogamer.nl/nes2_avmod_eng.html), and the video quality seems pretty good by just soldering the wires under the board.
I did that exact method first, infact that page was the page I used to do my first AV mod. leaving pin 21 grounded to the PCB still gives jailbars through the composite video. I don't suggest cutting the pin, but rather desoldering the PPU and lifting the pin and putting the PPU back in place. I guess if you don't ever care to have RF again you could cut it though.
Pasky wrote:
I don't suggest cutting the pin, but rather desoldering the PPU and lifting the pin and putting the PPU back in place.
Sounds like an awful lot of work when you can just cut the trace (as opposed to the pin itself). If you want to ever use RF again, just solder a wire (better yet, install a switch to select between RF and AV).
tokumaru wrote:
Pasky wrote:
I don't suggest cutting the pin, but rather desoldering the PPU and lifting the pin and putting the PPU back in place.
Sounds like an awful lot of work when you can just cut the trace (as opposed to the pin itself). If you want to ever use RF again, just solder a wire (better yet, install a switch to select between RF and AV).
True, not so much when you have a hakko 808 hehe.
Pasky wrote:
I did that exact method first, infact that page was the page I used to do my first AV mod. leaving pin 21 grounded to the PCB still gives jailbars through the composite video. I don't suggest cutting the pin, but rather desoldering the PPU and lifting the pin and putting the PPU back in place. I guess if you don't ever care to have RF again you could cut it though.
The jailbars are visible on light colors for sure. I'll try using a dremel to separate the pin from the board, thanks for the input guys!
koitsu wrote:
Only reason I bring this up is that it sounds like from the description the Famicom AV has the same "banding" problem as the NES toploader ...
I managed to find a semi-reasonably-priced Famicom AV for sale last week; it arrived today. Not a clone or a "modded" unit either. Maybe others have different experiences or maybe there are some revisions of units which use a different trace layout (e.g. noisier), but what I got has no banding of any sort (horizontal or vertical), even with bright colours. It's possibly the cleanest video output I've seen from a NES/Famicom in decades.
I have an Av famicom myself, I can also confirm that it doesn't seem to have any banding/jailbars etc.
My AV Famicom shows no jailbars when using a composite PPU. But when I installed 2 different RGB ppu's, both had serious jailbars. The weird thing was, is that the jailbar layout is exactly the same to what a NTSC-US top loader has via RF.
I think the jailbars are still present in the AV Famicom, just very very hard to see through composite video.
Cutting that pin and soldering the wire to the cut pin made everything better. No jailbars! Thanks for the tip Pasky!
These cutters did a really clean job of getting that pin detached:
http://www.amazon.com/Hakko-CHP170-Micr ... 282&sr=1-1
Everyone I have seen claim to have 100% removed the lines I think is either not seeing them during all test cases, their display hides it better than others, or they are not being truthful.
I am pretty sure that what everyone says about Famicom AV modding is going to apply to Top-Loader NES AV modding as the boards are very similar.
This is the closest I have brought it to lineless:
If anyone wants pics / info of what went into the Famicom I can take a few pictures.l
mikejmoffett, FWIW, my Famicom AV (non-modded, stock component) looks more or less similar to your 2nd shot (which looks perfect to me). This is normal; the "granular pixels" are caused by a shoddy dot pitch on the display itself. I have a Sony 13" Wega (Trinitron) whose dot pitch is pretty awful, and is more apparent the higher I increase the sharpness.
Your first picture shows what doesn't really look like "banding", but rather an anomaly with the CRT itself and possibly a particular H-sync or V-sync frequency synchronisation issue. I have this issue on my aforementioned Wega as well, meaning I can see """noise""" (I am using this term VERY loosely) that moves in somewhat of a wave pattern. But on my Wega, this happens with any device I have hooked up using composite or RF, so it's a CRT issue. Maybe some people aren't aware of things like this, I don't know. So I'm not blaming my NES/Famicom/Famicom AV for this.
I'm starting to think it would help if I uploaded shots from my Famicom (RF-only, no banding issue), my toploader NES (RF-only and has the banding issue), my front-loader NES (composite, no banding issue), and my Famicom AV (composite, no banding issue) all with the same game/screen so people can compare. Because like I said: my Famicom AV shows no signs of any banding problems, so when people insist theirs do, I start to wonder if there are multiple revisions of main PCBs, some of which may have slightly redesign traces/circuitry to clean up the video path; if such exists, maybe my Famicom AV has such improvements.
For example with the top-loader NES, we know factually there are revisions which have a different/cleaned up PCB to address the banding problem, but they're extremely rare and the work was done by Nintendo. At one point you could actually send your top-loader NES into Nintendo and they would exchange it (or repair it) for one without the banding issue. So there are some of those in the wild too, just really rare.
But I want to be clear about something: I cannot trust any comment in this thread from people talking about the "banding issue" who then go and do things like add in RGB conversion mods or other crap like that. The PPU only outputs composite video, so I cannot trust "RGB conversion" chips or other crap -- noise/issues could be introduced ANYWHERE in that path and it's outside of my control. I'd love to trust folks, but I simply can't. I have to go off of what my own experiences tell me, and I happen to have all 4 consoles.
So if someone wants me to spend a small portion of my afternoon setting up all 4 consoles + camera + getting all the consoles to run the same game + taking photos of my CRT showing the differences, I can do so. Just ask.
SnoopKatt wrote:
Cutting that pin and soldering the wire to the cut pin made everything better. No jailbars! Thanks for the tip Pasky!
These cutters did a really clean job of getting that pin detached:
http://www.amazon.com/Hakko-CHP170-Micr ... 282&sr=1-1Ya, unfortunately that doesn't remove them completely, it's comparable to a toaster nes at that point and they are very hard to see unless you're looking for them, but they are still visible if you turn your sharpness very high up. You can see them really well if you turn the sharpness high and go to mike tyson punch out glass joe stage, you can see the lines on the boxing ring.
Also RC Pro Am tracks show them really well. I really wish it was known what the hell causes them.
mikejmoffitt wrote:
Everyone I have seen claim to have 100% removed the lines I think is either not seeing them during all test cases, their display hides it better than others, or they are not being truthful.
It's not 100% gone, but it's way better. On a 32" LCD TV, they don't show up at all on dark colors, but on really light blues, they are kind of visible. It's not enough to be really distracting though.
SnoopKatt wrote:
mikejmoffitt wrote:
Everyone I have seen claim to have 100% removed the lines I think is either not seeing them during all test cases, their display hides it better than others, or they are not being truthful.
It's not 100% gone, but it's way better. On a 32" LCD TV, they don't show up at all on dark colors, but on really light blues, they are kind of visible. It's not enough to be really distracting though.
I wasn't commenting on anyone's in particular - just saying that I never seen actual perfect removal, just very strong improvement.
Koitsu, I was taking those pictures to show that the jailbars are nearly invisible - I know the moire effect is from the camera, none of those artifacts you see in the picture are there in person.
My favorite part is people using their shitty capture cards to "prove" the lines are gone...
A camcorder with a composite in to mini DV would probably capture it pretty well. It's old technology, but it should do a better job than most capture cards on the market.
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3. ???
4. Profit!
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Original source...does this really work?
Really shouldn't have used JPEGs. Please use PNGs for such screenshots/captures. JPEGs are lossy (I can see the compression and it makes distinguishing visual artefacts from video noise/etc. very difficult), while PNGs are not lossy. Thanks.
Well, in his defense, he just got the pictures from the japanese page he linked to, so the person who made the screen captures most likely won't see your requests for PNGs. I do agree with you though, images that are supposed to show the presence/lack of noise should always use lossless compression.
So what exactly did he do?
Pasky wrote:
So what exactly did he do?
I won't be able to get the page translated for roughly another 3-4 weeks, as my neighbour is in Saitama prefecture until the end of October.
It looks to me like some resistors and capacitors were added to some of the circuitry. One of the pictures also says to cut the trace coming off of PPU's pin 21. So if I had to guess, it's that he reworked a good portion of the output circuitry. The connector shown near the top is a single end connector that allows for 3 separate wires/connectors to go through it, I think (left audio, right audio, and video).
The links near the top of the page also go over anti-noise/anti-banding modifications for different Famicom hardware revisions, if I'm reading that correctly.
Was any progress made on this? The Google machine translation isn't very good, and this site seems to have some very detailed info regarding de-noising the Famicom circuit.
I think there's a large variation on the results based on the TV used. On my AOC 32" LCD TV, the lines are almost gone, but not quite on light colors. On my 13" Sanyo CRT at school, I cannot see them whatsoever, even if I get really close to the TV. They were quite visible on both TVs before the mod.
I wonder to what extent the different visibility on different TVs depends on each TV's input impedance.
Yes, there are still some faint bars that are visible when certain lighter shades of color take up a large portion of screen: Zelda is a good example, in the area just south of the graveyard, right after you exit the Lost Woods.
I don't have enough equipment with me to do a perfect A-B comparison, but just from playing one console for about 30 minutes and then switching to the other, to my eyes, the faint "jail bars" look the same on a toaster model. Without doing an A-B, though, it does look like the top-loader has slightly softer pixels, and the audio is a bit quieter, and possibly a slight bit more muffled.
I am perfectly okay with this.
It looks like I'm going to have to refurbish my toaster model if I want to enjoy Famicom expansion audio with an Everdrive, though.
Asaki wrote:
It looks like I'm going to have to refurbish my toaster model if I want to enjoy Famicom expansion audio with an Everdrive, though.
Bregalad has a thread on
how to modify a toploader and PowerPak to provide expansion audio, so something similar should be possible with an N8.
Yeah, it is possible, but I don't think I'm ready to take a soldering iron to my new flash cart =)
I found a list though, there's surprisingly few games that actually use it. I've already got my toaster back in action (sans screws and shielding), and Final Lap is a little bit cooler with sound effects.
I took a shot in the dark and tried to follow as much of the japanese tutorial as possible. I added a 4.7uf cap replacing the cap at c11, this is on the Famicom by the way, and man what a difference that one cap made. I'm going to try replacing the rest. But that is the best my famicom has ever looked.
Sorry to bump this very old topic but i'm currently trying to debug some unmodded front-loader jailbars problems
Here's the topic i've started.
http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13086&p=152239#p152239