Greed and all that - NESdev BBS

Greed and all that
by kyuusaku on 2009-04-14 (#45633)

In this post, Mike wrote:

The main reasons why Flash Carts aren't popular as of yet is that... oh, you already know. Greed and all that

Yea! bunnyboy is soooo greedy selling the PowerPak for $135! He's singlehandedly holding back Nesdev because emulators aren't free or accurate enough for all the high performance free homebrew in development, not to mention loading a ROM is so much slower than exchanging memory cards. I mean, he's already had a monopoly for two years and might even be able to pay bills with the income--ridiculous! By now it seems only fair for PowerPak to be distributed pro bono to us hard-working NES-lovers! :roll:

by Mike on 2009-04-14 (#45634)

kyuusaku wrote:
Yea! bunnyboy is soooo greedy selling the PowerPak for $135! He's singlehandedly holding back Nesdev because emulators aren't free or accurate enough for all the high performance free homebrew in development, not to mention loading a ROM is so much slower than exchanging memory cards. I mean, he's already had a monopoly for two years and might even be able to pay bills with the income--ridiculous! By now it seems only fair for PowerPak to be distributed pro bono to us hard-working NES-lovers!

If that's how you feel chap... Personally, I disagree with you.

by Jeroen on 2009-04-14 (#45638)

kyuusaku wrote:
Mike wrote:
The main reasons why Flash Carts aren't popular as of yet is that... oh, you already know. Greed and all that

Yea! bunnyboy is soooo greedy selling the PowerPak for $135! He's singlehandedly holding back Nesdev because emulators aren't free or accurate enough for all the high performance free homebrew in development, not to mention loading a ROM is so much slower than exchanging memory cards. I mean, he's already had a monopoly for two years and might even be able to pay bills with the income--ridiculous! By now it seems only fair for PowerPak to be distributed pro bono to us hard-working NES-lovers!

Last time I checked he hasnt turned a profit on the powerpak yet. Also you know how much those things cost to produce?

by Mike on 2009-04-14 (#45640)

I agree with ya Jero.

Don't know exactly what that kyuu fellow was all on about.. Somehow he drew a correlation between this thread and said PowerPak... Probably a slip of some sort. Well I forgive him.. I'm sure we all can.

Speaking of the PowerPak now.. Last I heard they were out of production?

Is that true?

If so, it doesn't take a genius to see that making the schematics available would be beneficial to all parties.

by kyuusaku on 2009-04-14 (#45642)

Mike & Jeroen: notice any sonic booms over your heads?

Mike: to reiterate, schematics are useless with programmable devices such as CPLD and MCU, you additionally need at least the fusemaps and firmware, and for any sort of educational value, source. If you can't come up with a schematic, you probably aren't coming up with a design/program to put into the devices. Regardless, anyone who understands the basics of computer buses can pull apart a discrete mapper game using pinouts published on sites such as this one. In another thread you were also pointed to the FunkyFlash project which contains schematics *and* mapper designs to a fully functional flash cart and you're still going on about the lack of free options; there's nothing stopping anyone from making a flash cart except their self.

And PowerPaks are in stock.

by Jeroen on 2009-04-14 (#45643)

Not sure what you mean with "sonic boombs over my head" but can we split this please? It'd be a waste to let this thread be closed.

by Mike on 2009-04-14 (#45651)

kyuusaku, it appears as if you've misinterpreted almost every post I've made on the topic and warped it into being some sort of attack on you or something.. I don't really know what's going on inside your head on that, but searching through my posts I've not seen myself "go on about lack of free options"..

It's okay. I forgive you.

There's an olive branch here.. see it? It's an old symbol for peace.. How about you take it? I'm handing it to you... see me handing it to you? Here it is..

*Hands you the olive branch, and cracks open a couple cold beers for everyone in the room*

Awhhh yeah.. I feel so much better now.

by kathaku on 2009-04-14 (#45655)

If I could produce one of my UNES devices for as cheap as a powerpak, let alone get custom housing for the thing (how did he go about doing that anyway?) I know I'd be somewhere else. I am personally envious of the powerpak's ability to remain so cheap (being a relative term, I know $135 seemed like a lot more when I first found out about it).

It is true though, a schematic is almost nothing without the firmware for it. That in mind, designing my project would have been a lot easier if more schematics of anything were available. BTW I'm gonna be posting mine sometime soon.

by kyuusaku on 2009-04-14 (#45660)

Mike wrote:
kyuusaku, it appears as if you've misinterpreted almost every post I've made on the topic and warped it into being some sort of attack on you or something..

I'm sorry you believe I've taken it that way because none of your posts have directly involved me and that's not what I meant to communicate. My comments are just responses to your comments (my opinion on your opinion), nothing personal, olive branch taken. I don't dislike you or something, I quite like your demeanor, and don't take this as a personal attack, but in a short time you have:

-asked for plans to build the PowerPak, with a signature implying the "NES scene" (Nesdev?) would benefit from an open source flash cart
-commented that more widespread flash carts would rejuvenate the NES' popularity (in a positive tone)
-commented that flash carts "aren't popular", because of greed
-praised kathaku for making the schematics to his device available (did he offer before your comment?)
-shown enthusiasm over the schematics (which I didn't believe you understood are not usable without firmware)
-expressed interest in an Instructable citing it would increase the number of people capable of working on Nesdev
-quite plainly expressed that free schematics are "beneficial to all parties"

To me that qualifies as "going on about" free (in the open source sense of the word) options.

(Warning: run-on) and the only reason it irks me is because you have made it clear you're all about open source flash carts, and you claim indirectly/by default that (the high cost or propriety of?) the PowerPak is greedy, yet it doesn't sound like you're going to be heading up your own "people's flash cart" (though you've been pointed to FunkyFlash and are on a site with all the necessary NES-specific resources available). Instead, and I could very well be wrong, it just sounds like you want other people to release their projects with the hope that that a saturated market would yield a less expensive device for you and people which might develop free NES software for you to play... Not that there'd be anything wrong with that, but it's hypocritical to criticize capitalist flash carts as they quite similarly look after their own interests and in the PowerPak's case, pretty humbly.

by Mike on 2009-04-15 (#45680)

I fail to see in my posts, myself ever mentioning said PowerPak as greedy, lol

According to a search... The first time I mentioned the device, was, well, yesterday, in this thread, replying to a post by Jeroen!

As for the ideal of schematics needing firmware for programming, etcetera.. I'm well aware, and always have been. That's what our electronics laboratory back here is for. No need to worry, friend, it's covered.

But alas, I am always a supporter of Instructables and How-Tos and MAKE and the like. Why? Seeing how other people have achieved the results your after, well, it gives you the opportunity to improve on their designs! Call it open source design, call it part of the scientific method... I call it Fun!

As for market saturation... Nahh. I have no interest in anything like that. Given schematics, etc, I probably wouldn't even build one! But I sure would try to improve on the design. It's what I do... It's what's fun

So, in closing, thanks for accepting the digital olive branch! I'm glad we've avoided a flame war. Haven't been in one of those since I was, oh, around 13 or so? Well it was more than a decade ago.. Maybe 94 or 96.

I think it's safe to say we can close this topic now. I have lunch to eat!

-Mike, hero to the people

by kyuusaku on 2009-04-15 (#45698)

Mike wrote:
I fail to see in my posts, myself ever mentioning said PowerPak as greedy, lol :D

I said by default meaning you didn't specifically say PowerPak but since it's the only "flash cart" of it's kind, I don't know what else you could be referring to as "greedy".

by MottZilla on 2009-04-15 (#45715)

He's got you there. PowerPAK is to my knowledge the only available NES flash cartridge so you clearly made that comment about it as there is no other target out there. When I first heard about the PowerPAK I thought it sounded awesome. But when I heard what it cost I had to think about it, for about a minute. But then I realized that 135$ to me was a bargin considering all it could do for me. While I can see how some people will pass on the PowerPAK due to its cost, it's not for everyone really. But if it's worth it to you and you want it I don't believe it is that out of reach to most people that may want it.

The PowerPAK I'm sure has encouraged alot of people to look into the NES again. There's just something special about using the actual hardware opposed to an emulator.

by Mike on 2009-04-15 (#45718)

Haha it's all good mate

by Banshaku on 2009-04-16 (#45721)

MottZilla wrote:
While I can see how some people will pass on the PowerPAK due to its cost, it's not for everyone really. But if it's worth it to you and you want it I don't believe it is that out of reach to most people that may want it.

If you really think about it, it's not that much out of reach: it just the price of ~2 PS3/XBOX360 games (in japan) so it's not that expensive (unless you're a student with no income which is another story).

Just Biohazard 5 + Street Figther IV combined together are more than a powerpak so..

Edit: I few extra confirmation for origin of cost.

by Jon on 2009-04-16 (#45726)

I bought one. Compared to what I spent on my first 6 NES games in the late 80s it's cheap. And as a programmer I spend a lot of money on books and tools. $135 is still not that much compared to many books most programmers end up buying. (It's only April and I've bought 8 books already this year). Putting sockets on a donor cart or getting a new empty cart is still pretty expensive when you consider you'll want to get an UV eraser (easily $30) and ample supply of EPROMs (easily $20) and the programmer (which at the cheapest is about $60). Going the route of not buying a PowerPak but still using the real hardware to verify your code I suspect will run around $110 unless you're a particularly adept scavenger.

As a professional embedded developer, $135 is cheap compared to the price of a JTAG bdm/ice/debugger/programmer that I normally have to get for doing similar work. (not that the NES has JTAG, too bad). It's a very small price compared to a good digital oscope(I still need one), and it wouldn't even cover the cables for a proper logic analyzer, let alone the LA itself.

My regret with the PowerPak is that it is not compatible with the NES clones(I like my retro duo's SNES controller ports). And that it's not available in a Famicom version. It would have been interesting to use it on one of those cheap famicom computers with the keyboard being sold in Asia and India. Speaking of which, anyone know how it works, is it done through the normal controller port. It would be nice to build a keyboard for the NES (and mouse, but just duplicate the SNES mouse protocol).

If you don't have a couple hundred bucks to spend on a NES development hobby, then you'll have to make due with the emulators only and test a bunch of different ones to have at least some confidence in compatibility. Compared to hobbies like RC airplanes, bicycling, boating, gardening, etc it's cheaper. Although it doesn't give you an excuse to go outside. So perhaps the PowerPak 2 ought to be wind powered or at least have pedals and a generator to justify it's "high price". It's almost 1/2 of the price of a cheap Chinese-made mountain bike, so expensive. But infinitely better quality.

by Banshaku on 2009-04-16 (#45728)

Jon wrote:
. Going the route of not buying a PowerPak but still using the real hardware to verify your code I suspect will run around $110 unless you're a particularly adept scavenger.

In japan, the cheapest I could found for a burner was already 160$. Ordering online could have been a solution but I still prefer to go to a store for those things. I guess I'm old fashioned.

Jon wrote:
And that it's not available in a Famicom version.

There is some adapter to convert 72 pins to 60 ones. Some people on this board are using them for the powerpak. Maybe I will try to find one someday if I get a powerpak.

Edit:

The link that I found but never bought from them yet for the adapter is here.

by MottZilla on 2009-04-16 (#45744)

That link appears to be for playing Famicom games in a NES, not the opposite. But the opposite is out there and I had one before. It came free with the HandiFami NES clone.

Also I don't see the PowerPAK not being in Famicom flavor as an issue unless you actually live in Japan. Anywhere else you might as well just get a NES.

by Jeroen on 2009-04-16 (#45750)

Well if you live in pal areas you probably want an ntsc system. So you might want to import a famicom......just saying.

by crade on 2009-04-16 (#45758)

MottZilla wrote:
That link appears to be for playing Famicom games in a NES, not the opposite. But the opposite is out there and I had one before. It came free with the HandiFami NES clone.

Actually, that link is pretty unclear as to whether which direction it converts.. The picture is FC->NES, but most (but not all) of the text claims it is for a NES->FC converter

You can get a NES->FC one from many places (heres an example)
http://www.goldenshop.com.hk/AI-trad/Mi ... sconv2.htm

But I have been having trouble finding a decent FC->NES one (other than the chip versions stripped from a NES cart)

MottZilla wrote:
Also I don't see the PowerPAK not being in Famicom flavor as an issue unless you actually live in Japan. Anywhere else you might as well just get a NES.

what if you wanted to play the FC games that require the microphone?

by tepples on 2009-04-16 (#45760)

crade wrote:
You can get a NES->FC one from many places (heres an example)
http://www.goldenshop.com.hk/AI-trad/Mi ... sconv2.htm

But I have been having trouble finding a decent FC->NES one (other than the chip versions stripped from a NES cart)

Possibly because they have to include some sort of lockout defeat in order to work on frontloaders as the end user expects, and the CIClone is fairly recent.

by Jon on 2009-04-16 (#45777)

MottZilla wrote:
Also I don't see the PowerPAK not being in Famicom flavor as an issue unless you actually live in Japan. Anywhere else you might as well just get a NES.

I like famicarts because I can find edge connectors easily for them. Making it easier to make a bridge between the two so I can have test points. Plus I think famicom cartridges are small and cute.

(edit: no they have a 60 to 60 pin connector in them. so this entire paragraph is wrong)
Now that I know (edit: no I didn't) that gyromite/pinball/etc can have a female-to-female 60 to 72 pin adapter inside (I've collected 2 already, I have more I think in my collection). I can pretty much build anything to anything (even 72 to 72 extension with test points) but just making the right PCB to fit between. I could even put drivers on the address and data lines and stick LEDs on them, that would be amusing, but probably only useful if I put a way to stop the cpu.

An address decoder on the PRG bus with a bunch of switches to select an address to trigger clocks to stop would be sexy. But I think it would require cutting a lot of traces on my NES.

by Banshaku on 2009-04-16 (#45793)

MottZilla wrote:
That link appears to be for playing Famicom games in a NES, not the opposite. But the opposite is out there and I had one before. It came free with the HandiFami NES clone.

There seems to be a lot of discrepancies in the text (like mentioned by Crade) but it seems to be a 72 to 60 pins converter. I may try to confirm someday since the price is quite cheap.

MottZilla wrote:
Also I don't see the PowerPAK not being in Famicom flavor as an issue unless you actually live in Japan. Anywhere else you might as well just get a NES.

I guess that apply to me.. I miss my original nes...

by Jon on 2009-04-16 (#45810)

72-to-60 at this place was only $6. So I might get one or two from there. http://www.triforcegamez.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_4&products_id=789