Is there a way to tell what ROM you have works with what board type?
So, for example, if I have, say for sake of example, the Earthbound Zero ROM and I want to know if it uses the TKROM or the TSROM (I know it uses the TKROM... just an example) is there a simple way to find out?
Say you have an ROM with an MMC3 style mapper that is known to be a Nintendo board, not a clone. Take the first line that applies (based on
KH's TxROM board list):
- Pinbot mapper: TQROM
- Play Action Football mapper: TLSROM
- StarTropics series: HKROM
- Four-screen bit set, PRG size <= 128 KB: TVROM
- Four-screen bit set: TR1ROM
- Battery bit set: TKROM
- CHR size = 0: TGROM
- Does not write to WRAM: TLROM or an undersize board
There were a couple "undersize" alternatives to TLROM that may have been cheaper for Nintendo to produce, using 28 pin ROMs.
Man! Is there a Wiki for EVERYTHING now? I swear that I am completely expecting the nose-picker's wiki at any time. Pikki-wiki.
Thanks for the help, gang.
noriaki_kakyouin wrote:
Man! Is there a Wiki for EVERYTHING now?
Everything2.com is similar to but not quite a wiki. That's where I started before moving to Wikipedia.
Quote:
I swear that I am completely expecting the nose-picker's wiki at any time. Pikki-wiki.
You expected this?
A similar decision tree can be made for
SxROM (MMC1) boards, although there are a lot more oversizes to deal with. Or if the game is commercial, it is not a mapper hack, and you know its title, you can look it up in
this table.
Would a TSROM or TKROM cart run the TLROM games without problems? I don't see a reason why not, but since I'm making a TSROM devcart, I would just like to avoid unpleasant surprises... O.o
Low G Man relies on open bus in the WRAM area, but everything else should be OK.
tepples wrote:
Low G Man relies on open bus in the WRAM area, but everything else should be OK.
Oh yeah, I heard of that before... But why would it do that? Is there a usefull meaning to this or is it just some sort of copy protection?
It might have originally been planned to use WRAM but marketing made the developers reengineer the game to cut manufacturing costs, and they forgot to change some of the routines back.
Okay, a slight shift on the subject, but I was wondering if anyone has successfully put an english translation of FF3j onto a board yet. Is it possible to just copy the PRG part of the translated ROM onto a 512k chip and replace the chip on an FF3j board? What 512k chip would you use anyway? Is this even possible?
Funny you should mention this! (smile) We just started talking about this one in the thread "
Rewiring TLROM cart for use with W27E512".
I found out some information since I last posted there that I can share with you here.
From the ROM LABORATORY
FORUM "nesorama" posted:
"modifi SMB3 or SMB2 MMC3 WRAM cart
to MMC3 VRAM CART +SRAM (FF3 will work great!) " while "siudym" stated: "
modifi MMC3 chrom+wram cart (like KIRBY) or MMC3 chram cart (like MM4/MM6) or buy oryginal FF3 cart...". Personally, the lack of actual words makes it a bit difficult to understand, but I hope you get the idea: You can either use a TGROM cart (like Megaman 4, Megaman 6, or Ninja Crusaders) or modify a TSROM into a TGROM.
Looks like there's some '
Super Mario Bros. 2' carts that have all 72 pins along the bottom. It appears that these carts are perfect for modifying a TSROM into a TGROM with extras.
A link I found in that same thread goes into detail as to HOW to modify a TGROM. The only problem I have is that the instructions are contradictory to what was posted on the
Conversion board list here.
A
mobile S-RAM chip I found.
The pinouts for the
S-RAM and the
V-RAM chips (ROM Lab is a great resource).
I think the PRG ROM would be modified just like normal with the CHR RAM being modified specially as shown in the links above. I'd really like others to let me know if i'm right and how well it works.
Hope this helps, Celius. I'm new to this and am more than willing to share what i'm finding out.[/img]
Thanks, I appreciate it! But, I'm wondering if I can possibly just put the PRG data from FF3j Translated onto a 27C040 and just stick that into a FF3j famicart. Would that work? Would I need to do the same type of modifications to the cart/chip?
I'm sorry. I should have been more clear to answer your question first before I rambled on about how to do it. Got too excited to share what I just learned... sorry.
Plain answer: If you find a Megaman 4, Megaman 6, or Ninja Crusaders cart (TGROM board is in these) or if you own the famicom FF3j cart, then i'm pretty sure you're fine just putting it on the PRG chip.
If you do not own one of those three games (or the original Famicom cart), then no you cannot.
If the answer is no, THEN see my above ramblings on how to do.... stuff... to things (smile).
noriaki_kakyouin wrote:
Plain answer: If you find a Megaman 4, Megaman 6, or Ninja Crusaders cart (TGROM board is in these) or if you own the famicom FF3j cart, then i'm pretty sure you're fine just putting it on the PRG chip.
TGROM doesn't appear to have PRG RAM.
Yup... sure does. From
this site.
My only question (and it's a very newbie one, so I apologize) is... do you just buy an 8-k RAM chip and plop it in or does it need to be programmed?
The TGROM picture shows four chips (row 1: PRG ROM, CHR RAM, CIC; row 2: MMC3), but no PRG RAM.
RAM chips do not need to be programmed, but the board may need to be rewired slightly to accept them.
AH! I got the 'A' mixed up with the 'O'... sorry about that. But why mention that it doesn't have a PGR RAM?
Thanks for the information about the V-RAM chip not needing to be programmed.
PRG RAM is expansion SRAM necessary for saving AND operation.
Oh! The PRG chip in FF3j is 32 pins! So I could just copy the data from FF3j translated onto a 27C040 and just stick it in? That's awesome! I'll be doing that! I can't wait!
Celius wrote:
Oh! The PRG chip in FF3j is 32 pins! So I could just copy the data from FF3j translated onto a 27C040 and just stick it in? That's awesome! I'll be doing that! I can't wait!
Let me know how well it goes.
Celius wrote:
Oh! The PRG chip in FF3j is 32 pins! So I could just copy the data from FF3j translated onto a 27C040 and just stick it in? That's awesome! I'll be doing that! I can't wait!
Of course, as long as the translation works on a hard console.
kyuusaku wrote:
Of course, as long as the translation works on a hard console.
Why would it not? It works on Nintendulator just fine, so chances are that it will work fine on the NES.
For all I knew you could have been talking about one of the Nesticle-era FF3j translations. Go for it.
I think few franslation would break the ROM. However, the translation that "looks the best" may be the most dangerous, because sometimes they change the code to do something look different, and at that point it become dangerous. Since they just change letter tiles and text, this is no problem.
I had to hack FF2 transltaed to make sure it woks fine, but it wasn't hard to make it looks in Nintendulator what it looked in Nesticle. If it works with Nintendulator, then you're almost sure to have no problem.
Okay, I hate EPROM programmers. I honestly do not know too much about EPROMs. Like Vpp and all these options in the EPROM programmer get really confusing. So just let me get this straight.
1. Plug EPROM programmer into computer and stuff
2. Open EPROM program
3. Insert EPROM
4. Select which device you are using
5. Move the switch thingys to match whats shown
6. Choose what data to write to chip
7. Write to chip
I'm using Willem PCB3 software, if that helps. But as soon as it reaches $20000 on the chip, it says there's an error. Any reasons why there'd be an error like that? Low voltage? Wrong settings? What?
Quote:
But as soon as it reaches $20000 on the chip, it says there's an error.
Let me guess: you have a 128KB EPROM but you've told the programmer it's a 256KB or something larger?
No, actually, it was just that I forgot to switch it to PCB3 mode, then I did it, and it successfully programmed the chip, apparently.
So here's the scenario. Doesn't work. I don't know if it's my programmer, the game, or just me. I have never successfully put anything on to the NES ever. I've attempted like 5 times already, and I haven't done it yet. The EPROM was 100ns, is that not good? I have USB power only for my programmer, but it said it programmed it alright, and I compared the data from the EPROM with the PRG data for FF3, and they are apparently the same, no errors. But all I get is a blank screen.
I think I should just find somebody that I can pay to make cartridges for me, because this is seriously making me angry. I have attempted many times, but failed all of them. I am sad now...
You're trying to do a home made FF3 cartridge, right ? Didn't you say you bought the real FF3 boxed cartridge ? Or do you just not want to play it in japaneese ?
Did you put a RAM chip instead the CHROM chip of the original TKROM card an follow all the instructions by drk314 to convert to TNROM ? Did you glue the pad for CHR /WR ? Did you make sure it has good contact ? I neved did that, I made only a FF2 card, becuase I just don't have any TKROM board to destroy. But I think glue a pad while being sure it will make good contact to the NES connector would be pretty hard.
Bregalad wrote:
You're trying to do a home made FF3 cartridge, right ? Didn't you say you bought the real FF3 boxed cartridge ? Or do you just not want to play it in japaneese ?
I just to put the english translation onto an FF3j cartridge, because no, I did not want to play it in japanese. I just split the .NES file with the copynes software, and burned the PRG to a 27C040. That should've worked in an FF3j cart, right?
You soldered the FF3 translated INSTED OF THE REAL FF3 ??? Are you crazy ? Don't you know you're taking risk to destroy a very rare cartridge ???
Anyway, you have to do some modifications. I don't know what they are, because pure TNROM rewiring isn't doccumented, due to the rare board (it is HVC-TNROM, right ?).
So, if you just put another EPROM in the slot of a real FF3j rom, you have to compare the pinout of a NES 512kb PRG chip, and the pinout of your 27C040 chip, and rewire all pins that are different. If you don't do that, of course it will not work.
Lots of translated games work on all the emulators I have tried and then don't work in the NES. Quite a few untranslated .nes files don't work on the NES. Maybe copy errors introduced invalid op-codes. Or translations maybe had some code that won't work on NES hardware.
First, I'd like to say that my FF3j cart was $8, so it's not that much of a loss. I can buy a boxed copy for $25 at the end of the month, and I'm going to do that.
Okay, I really see now this was like the dumbest idea ever, because I have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to pinouts. How would I figure such a thing out? I assumed that this was going to be okay, because I asked if I could just program the chip, and replace the PRG (which is still in good condition by the way, and I can solder it back in if I want) with the EPROM, and nobody said no, so I thought it'd be okay. Well, I didn't destroy anything, so it's all good.
The pinout of an 512kb NES mask PRGROM is the following :
Code:
---_---
PRG A17 - |01 32| - +5V
PRG A18 - |02 31| - +5V
PRG A15 - |03 30| - +5V
PRG A12 - |04 29| - PRG A14
PRG A7 - |05 28| - PRG A13
PRG A6 - |06 27| - PRG A8
PRG A5 - |07 26| - PRG A9
PRG A4 - |08 25| - PRG A11
PRG A3 - |09 24| - PRG A16
PRG A2 - |10 23| - PRG A10
PRG A1 - |11 22| - PRG /CE
PRG A0 - |12 21| - PRG D7
PRG D0 - |13 20| - PRG D6
PRG D1 - |14 19| - PRG D5
PRG D2 - |15 18| - PRG D4
GND - |16 17| - PRG D3
-------
I've head that the pinout are different for MMC5 games, but it definitely should be this for a MMC3 game.
Then come the pinout of the 27C040 chip :
Code:
---_---
VPP - |01 32| - VCC
A16 - |02 31| - A18
A15 - |03 30| - A17
A12 - |04 29| - A14
A7 - |05 28| - A13
A6 - |06 27| - A8
A5 - |07 26| - A9
A4 - |08 25| - A11
A3 - |09 24| - OE
A2 - |10 23| - A10
A1 - |11 22| - CE
A0 - |12 21| - D7
D0 - |13 20| - D6
D1 - |14 19| - D5
D2 - |15 18| - D4
GND - |16 17| - D3
-------
You will notice some difference on pins 1, 2, 24, 30 and 31.
So you conclude the following modifications :
- Cut tracks to pins 1, 2, 24, 30 and 31. (that will be hard for 30 and 31 because they're tied to VCC, so bend up pins if necessary)
- Wire pin 30 to hole 1 (A17)
- Wire pin 31 to hole 2 (A18)
- Wire pin 24 to GND (/OE)
- Wire pin 2 to hole 24 (A16)
- Wire pin 1 to VCC (GND should also work, but do not leave it floating) (VPP)
It really isn't that complicated. I hope you will be able to do it even with the chip already soldered on the board, but it will make the task harder.
So I should just bend up the pins, and have wires from those pins to those holes, even when they're occupied by other pins? Just making sure, so I don't screw anything up. I desoldered my chip, bent the following pins up, and one was bent a little weird, so I bend it a little more, and it broke off. So I'll be continuing this project in about a week or so, when my new EPROMs arrive.
And also, about your last step. Are you saying to have a wire going across the 27C040? From pin 1 to pin 32?
It's a shame for your broken EPROM. Dissolvering a chip with more than 8 pins without damage is hard to impossible, at least for me.
You basically have 2 methods for rewiring. Cut track, and place wires with the track that was leading to the pin, by scratching the track or sometimes you'll find a hole that change the side of the PCB for the track that will serve as a solder point if you're lucky.
You can also bend pins up, and solder the wire in the hole, that is exactly the same. I prefer cut tracks, but if you prefer bend pins that really doesn't matter.
Normally you don't have to wire to a hole where there is already a pin in, exept for VCC and GND, but then solder the wire on the pad next to the pin.
To wire pin 1 to VCC, if you bend it up you'll have to place a wire across the chip, that's the easier way to do that. You could also found some other point that is connected to VCC or GND. On my datasheets, they say VPP can be either state. I don't know if it really matter if that pins is connected to something or not, but I'd not leave it floating just to be safe, espectially considering that all EPROMs are CMOS technology, and that leave floating is forbidden in CMOS technology chip whatever you happen to be doing, because you are getting parasited and you consumme useless power. LS technology chips don't matter if unused pins are leave floating.
Okay, thanks. I would much rather bend up pins, because once you cut the tracks, they're cut forever. If you just bend the pins, you can bend them back down if neccissary. You can't really uncut the track you just cut. I think I'd also cut the wrong tracks on accident, and that'd be bad.
Also, when I wire stuff, I just use solder wire, because I can just melt the wire to where I want it soldered. Is that a bad idea for wiring?
My 27C040, if it's the same brand, will have a notch on one end. That's the end with pin 1, right? There's this kind:
Code:
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
| o|
| <
| |
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
And there's this kind:
Code:
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
| |
| <
| |
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Mine doesn't have the little circle that marks pin 1, it just has the little notch. That's the side with pin 1 though, right?
Quote:
Okay, thanks. I would much rather bend up pins, because once you cut the tracks, they're cut forever. If you just bend the pins, you can bend them back down if neccissary. You can't really uncut the track you just cut. I think I'd also cut the wrong tracks on accident, and that'd be bad.
You can just re-wire the track that you cut, but I think you're pretty right on that point. When I rewire a NES card, usually the original chip is too much damaged to be re-used, so I think I'll only put EPROMs in the future and never orginal mask ROMs. But overall, bend up pins would allow less errors than cutting track.
Celius wrote:
Also, when I wire stuff, I just use solder wire, because I can just melt the wire to where I want it soldered. Is that a bad idea for wiring?
Yes, it is a bad idea, unless you make sure that the solder won't make electical contact with anything else, wich is pretty hard on a PCB due to the number of solder pads there is on the board. You should found a trick to make sure that you get no short circuit whatever happen. I reccomand getting tiny isolated wire that will work better. I got from my dad some wire that is isolated by a strange tiny red stuff that melt when you solder, so the wire can make easily contact and still be isolated. I don't know hot to explain this in english, but it works good.
PS: Pin 1 is always near the mark conter clock-wise.
Oh, I never thought about that. But I know what you're saying about your wire, I think. Is it insolated in some red rubbery stuff? One thing I don't like is when wires like that have such a tiny end, it is hard to solder. Like my 9V battery snap that I soldered to the end of my NES cord, the ends were so tiny, and it is not soldered on there very well. I guess I'm getting alot better at soldering. I successfully desoldered my CPU when trying to build my CopyNES, and I was told that was extremely difficult. It wasn't that hard for me. The pins were a little bent, but it made it out okay. I can still play on the system, but I've never successfully dumped a game on to my computer.
I'm excited to continue on with this project! I hope it works, I really do.
Yes, it is isoleted in some red stuff, but it is not plastic, and it looks like plain copper, but it actually is an isolation that melt when you solder.
It's good if you're getting better at sldering. I really DO hate soldering. I'm unable to solver something with more than 8 pins without totally destroying it. I tried to disolver a CIC, but I totally failed, most pins were broken, and it was only 14 pins, I think. Disolvering pins isn't a problem at first, but when you removed solver on all pins, you notice that the chip still is fixed to the PCB and don't want to move. Then I have to figure wich pins are badly fixed and from here things get worse and worse to go to the catastrophe.
I also hate soldering wires, because they're always moving. You need a hand to hold the iron and the other to hold the solder, so you need to trick to have your wire hold where you want it to be soldered, and this is quite hard, because you have to use the same hand that hold the soder and.... whatever, it is so horrible.
I know I've said this before on this forum but wire wrap wire is ideal for devcarts. It's just the right size, comes in spools of different colours and is reliable. It's really cheap. You buy a little tool like a small screwdriver which connects the wire to the pins and also removes the insulation. It's very cheap and available from almost any electronic shop like RadioShack. Also the cheap bulb desoldering iron from RadioShack ($12) makes taking out mask rom easy and safe. I can take a 32 pin mask out in around 5 minutes with no damage. I also found a used weller soldering station on eBay that was pretty cheap. I've used it for a few years now and it makes soldering a real pleasure. If you're going to do electronics for your whole life it makes sense to buy some good tools (used if you're on a budget).
Lloyd Gordon wrote:
I can take a 32 pin mask out in around 5 minutes with no damage.
With my disolvering pump it takes me 30 minues or so to remove the chip that is totally destroyed after the opperation. I think it's me rather than my tools, anyway.
It takes me around 30 minutes too, with a regular soldering iron and a solder sucker. The chip may come off in one piece or may loose some legs during the process. It really depends. I'm not worried about destroying MASK ROMs though, since if the devcart works you can just program that same game and put those chips in. So you don't actually loose the game...