techniques you've found on your own

This is an archive of a topic from NESdev BBS, taken in mid-October 2019 before a server upgrade.
View original topic
techniques you've found on your own
by on (#65678)
detuning - doubling instruments at a slightly different pitch

frequency sweep detuning - doubling an instrument, one with pitch sweeping the other without

fake reverberation - doubling an instrument only with a little delay to it
Re: techniques you've found on your own
by on (#65687)
psycopathicteen wrote:
detuning - doubling instruments at a slightly different pitch

Also called chorus.

Quote:
frequency sweep detuning - doubling an instrument, one with pitch sweeping the other without (this one works good for fm synth, not so much with NES, I don't know why)

The "LED FUT" tune in Klax for NES does this.

Quote:
fake reverberation - doubling an instrument only with a little delay to it

That's two-voice echo, There's also one-voice echo, which works better with staccato. You can hear a two-voice and one-voice echo at the same time in the first 15 seconds of "Sappy" by Neil Voss.


I've been known to simulate the Beatles' auto-double-track effect in a tracker by subtly pitch-sweeping a vocal part back and forth in two channels. When I sweep channel 1 up, I sweep channel 2 down at the same time. This produces an effect not unlike a detune but without the vocals falling out of sync. (For example, Everybody wants to make a stupid Flash but we're broke ass n*gg*z and we ain't got no cash.)

by on (#65843)
This is probably nothing new, but to get any polyrhythm, just multiply the two No.'s of beats together and use that as the basis for the length of a pattern. So, I wanted 4 against 3, so 12 is the basis of my pattern. I ended up making my pattern 48 rows long as a result. I know there are other tricks using frame delays and so forth, but I wanted my song to work with my simple sound driver, too :D

by on (#65844)
I use some techniques you mentionned but I definitely didn't find them on my own.

What I found on my own is by playing the same part with a square wave and the triangle but without the detune/chrous (but possibly at a different octave), it can sound like another instrument and produce interesting results.

I also found how to simulate multiple channels with the FDS expansion sound, visit the forums at www.2a03.org if you're interested about it.

If you are programing a game and only have 2 melodic voices used, it's good practice to use one third for chrous/echo and sound effects. So that when a sound effect interrupts it, it will be much less noticeable as the main voice will continue playing.

by on (#65846)
I invented a technique called Triplet Reverb Oscillation Legato Loudness.

It's better known by it's acronym.

by on (#65855)
neilbaldwin wrote:
I invented a technique called Triplet Reverb Oscillation Legato Loudness.

It's better known by it's acronym.


SemiTone Unmatched Phase Inverted Delinearization

? Am I on the right track ?

by on (#65859)
NESICIDE wrote:
neilbaldwin wrote:
I invented a technique called Triplet Reverb Oscillation Legato Loudness.

It's better known by it's acronym.


SemiTone Unmatched Phase Inverted Delinearization

? Am I on the right track ?


:)

by on (#65884)
AFAICT, I don't think I had found any technique completely on my own. I had already been calling local Amiga BBS's and downloading MODs (with the good old 8-bit Soundblaster Pro, hehe) and trackers before internet was available here, so I had already seen all sorts of tricks.

I can think of techniques I had seen on other platforms that I tried on NES. Some of my NSFs have 3 samples when using bass drum and snare drum samples. The 3rd sample is bass+snare mixed. This is extremely common in MODs when channels are limited, but it doesn't seem done much on NES's DPCM. You can do that with all sorts of samples, it's easiest to do with drum sounds though. There's no reason the NES DPCM has to always be treated as a single channel, other than convenience.

I also noticed a technique used in Star Tropics 2 that effects the triangle channel volume by using $4011. It was pretty strange, and I haven't seen anyone else do that the way they did. I found it while developing my NSF player, it doesn't even show the $4011 reg anymore since it's otherwise pretty uninteresting to watch. But it's supported in my player, heheh (it's very subtle-sounding anyways).

by on (#65897)
0:26-0:33 and 0:45-0:51 whatever this is called, it's really a combination of things that sounds neat

2:33 to 2:40 playing squares at octaves with differing volumes to make new sounds

dpcm triangle

Triange volume / echo using samples for delta counter nonsense

triangle echo using quantization

by on (#65900)
RushJet1 wrote:
0:26-0:33 and 0:45-0:51 whatever this is called, it's really a combination of things that sounds neat

That sounds like one-shot arpeggio + single-voice echo.

Quote:
2:33 to 2:40 playing squares at octaves with differing volumes to make new sounds

I've had this happen by accident when trying to combine two squares at octaves.

Quote:

Amazing. What engine does it use? Are the switches between drum sample and the second triangle channel manually tracked, or does the playback engine automatically detect when a drum sample is over using $4015 reads?

Quote:

By "nonsense", you mean "volume control", right?

Quote:

What I found cool about this one was how it played two overlapping chords in the square waves: two slow arpeggios out of phase with each other.

by on (#65912)
OH MY GOD RushJet1 you really know about special effect don't you ??

@Memblers : I find the DPCM usually sound like crap so playing multiple tones on it probably will make things worse. I think Uforia did this, playing bass + durms on DPCM at one time. It probably wasted a ridiculous amount ROM space for this effect though.

The DPCM triangle is interesting. I wonder how this is possible.

by on (#65921)
tepples wrote:
That sounds like one-shot arpeggio + single-voice echo.


It basically is, but with the squares at octaves changing duty cycle. Sounds vaguely to me like some kinda orchestra where they play a xylophone or similar instrument at the beginning of each note... kind of.

Quote:
've had this happen by accident when trying to combine two squares at octaves.


I found this out before I started writing NSFs at all. I was playing around with a pure square wave soundfont on my keyboard, and played at octaves and was like "oh, sounds like a 25% wave." I used that extensively in my SMS music.

Quote:
Amazing. What engine does it use? Are the switches between drum sample and the second triangle channel manually tracked, or does the playback engine automatically detect when a drum sample is over using $4015 reads?


Uses plain MCK, the switches between the kick/snare and triangle are manually done, but all i had to do was copy / paste and change the note, so it wasn't too hard.

Quote:
By "nonsense", you mean "volume control", right?


Yep. I used samples because just changing the counter all at once produced a nasty click. Samples ramp the volume up / down slower, so they sound nicer.

Quote:
What I found cool about this one was how it played two overlapping chords in the square waves: two slow arpeggios out of phase with each other.


I actually first did that effect much earlier, in unwilling antagonist (cossack stages 3-4 from Mega Man 4). This effect originally sounded horrible because of the squares resetting each frame in MCK back then... dunno if this one is corrected (I think it is, NSFPlug may be fooling me though).

Oh some more I thought of:

mega man 9.5 - fitting 15 minutes of music in a 32K file in PPMCK using improvised techniques to do quantization, repeat macros, and strict bankswitching (this is not technically a "special effect" but just a way to do other effects efficiently)

alkali earth - layered saw waves for that eurotrash unce feel

Hawkeye - my actual first use of DPCM bass, but it's a lot less impressive than Sing for Absolution's use of it

turbo - took the idea that people have been doing forever with the triangle wave + noise to do a good snare and tweaked it to sound as realistic as i could

our revolution - I wrote a program called Auto Echo that ..automated single channel echo (before this, for songs of mine such as "cruzzazzay," which had single channel echo for the entire song, it took hours just to make notes echo if there were a lot of them). this is more of a milestone than anything because it made writing music 20x easier. Right at 1:12 you can tell that it was clearly easier to do these because the song starts doing echo and never stops past this point :P

there's another song I don't have here, but sent to a friend. I might be able to upload that later today-- it uses the FDS as the "noise" channel and uses the noise channel as bass.

there are other things like "that first time i used single channel echo correctly" or other crazy effects, but those I mostly noticed in other songs and copied them.

by on (#65929)
RushJet1, did you compose all of that (except for the Mega Man tracks)? Fuck, you have some great songs!

by on (#65940)
tokumaru wrote:
RushJet1, did you compose all of that (except for the Mega Man tracks)? Fuck, you have some great songs!


i composed everything i listed but Unwilling Antagonist, Hawkeye, Sing for Absolution (those are covers)

by on (#66007)
Yeah, that is some great stuff RushJet, cool tricks too. The snare sound in turbo is awesome. I tried to make snare sounds, but never really nailed it like that.

No one else has mentioned it yet, but one of the coolest sound tricks ever is one blargg found - NES DMC Saw Wave (does square and triangle as well). With controllable volume! It's a little disappointing that no one seems to be using this yet.

by on (#66008)
Memblers wrote:
one of the coolest sound tricks ever is one blargg found - NES DMC Saw Wave (does square and triangle as well). With controllable volume! It's a little disappointing that no one seems to be using this yet.

Nobody uses it yet because NSF doesn't handle IRQs.

by on (#66022)
I tried tinkering around with the sample used in The Immortal, but attempts to repitch it or do anything more advanced with it in famitracker was met with failure. :(

by on (#66040)
tepples wrote:
Memblers wrote:
one of the coolest sound tricks ever is one blargg found - NES DMC Saw Wave (does square and triangle as well). With controllable volume! It's a little disappointing that no one seems to be using this yet.

Nobody uses it yet because NSF doesn't handle IRQs.

Which again brings us to http://nesdev.com/bbs/viewtopi ... 4606#64606

by on (#66076)
This little demo features a unique effect that I have never seen in any NSF: basically when I play a bass sample, I have two parts, the beginning and the loop, and they play in one shot. Looping correctly a sample is pretty difficult due to the way the DMC loops... Also I'm using writes to $4011 to enhance a bit the drum.

by on (#66078)
Hey, that's pretty cool.

Another technique I used once was stringing together a bunch of small samples by using the DMC IRQ to trigger the next one. Doesn't seem to be done much. That's how my speech synth worked, with 16kB of DPCM samples.

by on (#66125)
fds thing i mentioned earlier

by on (#66145)
Very cool thing RushJet1 ! At least someone else experimented with the FDS channel. You'd want to visit here to see what I've done with it.

by on (#66307)
Performance post in performance topic :D

I don't think most folks enjoy talking about expansion chip music, or they just complain that we're not limiting ourselves enough or some crap, but I have to face facts that back in the early 2000s when I jumped from listening to game soundtracks in emulated formats to beginnings of nsf homebrew, Moondemo was one of the things that blew my mind.

People love to complain about wank. Sometimes, I find it rightfully so. That's why whenever I took part in a famicompo, I tried to introduce something I learned from screwing 'round with the N106 in mml. I'm sure someone happened upon sweeping through custom patterns mid-note, since it's all over the square waves, or C64, FM synth, etc... tepples had a wonderful name for the effect some thread back but I don't remember the name. Soft sampling is all that comes to mind, but I know that isn't it. I got some slap bass and violins out of it that made me generally happy.

Eventually I got concerned about relying on DPCM with the expanded sound. Lately I've been trying to make good Percussion sound with the channels. Last Famicompo I was trying to make a good sounding Timpani for a cover, when I completely stumbled upon an effect I was thinking about how to create for awhile: simulated noise. Granted, for that while I wanted to try to make DPCM in a way that would make a good looped noise sound on that channel, while being a single finite pattern...but this works too!

(also, now that I think about it, TONs of early arcade games I bet did the same sort of thing when trying to make noisy explosions. Gorf comes to mind.)

(ALSO, I find it really really cool hearing noise like effects out of the squarewaves on Neil's pulsar tracker!)

This years compo, I wanna take the concepts further but since I'm not an actual coder, I've about run into the limits of what I can think of doing useful with the chip. The last thing I'd love to see is someone simulate prerendered soundwaves similar to how FM synth channels have been used on the Genesis to add extra pcm effects.

by on (#66310)
I thought of simulating noise with pitched channels back when I was trying to make pretend modem sounds with an IBM PC's beeper in QBasic. Early 300 baud POTS modems used ITU V.21, a primitive form of frequency modulation. This gave way to phase modulation at 1200 bps, then various QAM rates up to 33600 bps.

As for wank: I seem to remember that the minimalistic soundtrack of Metroid was Hip Tanaka's response to the epidemic of wank among NES composers at the time.

by on (#66311)
Very cool! When you said that, it made me wonder if anyone has attempted to make music out of modem signals. Not a remix, but software hacks to send tones to the thing, kinda like how some very very old computers sent signals to separate radio speakers to hear simple music....

by on (#66324)
No, ionustron, we're not against expansion chips ! What you made is in fact very cool. It's true the N106 is REALLY overkill, but it's nice to use it anyway !
The only thing I'd be against is people that use more than an expansion chip at a time. I happened to find a .nsf of Chrono Cross' intro which sounded good but it was using FDS + N106 + VRC7 which noes not make any sense.

It would never be possible to convert it on .nes format, let alone to a cartridge. Also, it's not possible to test N106 stuff on the real hardware with a real N106 because all known carts are made of non-replacable epoxy blobs, but what you did with the N106 is cool nevertheless.