Horrible popular belief : NES music = MIDI

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Horrible popular belief : NES music = MIDI
by Bregalad on 2005-09-20 (#4730)

I don't know if I should put this in the general forums or here, but because more people seems to browse here, I decided to post it here. (don't be scared cause of this, because you may not even read this if I posted it in the General Stuff area, hehe it's natural to try to make as much people as possible to read your posts, isn't it ?)

I noted, while reading some review on http://www.gamefaqs.com, that many review of NES games or NES hardware says thing like :
"The games really made great music even surpassing the horrible NES MIDI limitation", or "You know, the NES is only able to render horrible MIDI sound, so it's hard to rate the sound of this game", or even worse for NES hardware reviews "The NES is only able to play horrible MIDIs, but back in the time it's sound was pretty good".
I think the thing that is awfully horrible is the stupidity of people writing this. They don't even know what a MIDI is, nor what a Square wave, Triangle wave or Noise wave is. If they are persons that loves modern gaming and write reviews for games they played earlier for nostalgy, they don't know that what their favorite PS2 or somethings outpouts something much closer to MIDI format than the NES, and if they are just old games fan, they just don't know what is a MIDI file.

First of all, MIDI is a file format, while the NES is a hardware.

The MIDI format is "powerfull", much more than the NES hardware, it actually is a standard format to record song for synthetisers and computers, and the quality of a MIDI file 100% depends on witch hardware it is played. If it is played with an old synthetiser, it can sound very bad, but newest ones can reach an amazing sound quality, with the same format. Now with selectable sound fonts, the MIDI format is nearly-indefinitely expanded. So referring to MIDI as a quality is totally crazy, scince MIDI is only sequnenced note, without any quality limitation or restrictions.

However, I think even old and simple sound circuit such as the NES apu can not be reproducted by the MIDI format in any forms. There is a Square wave instrument in the main MIDI instrument definition, but it usually sound rather than a techno synthetised sound that an actual pure square wave. And where are arpeggio effects, volume effects (others than main volume control), duty cycle change, etc, etc... ? Huh ? The MIDI falls apart with all the effects that the NES can outpout. Even if the MIDI is a format and the NES APU a hardware, I think both thing are the most opposite thing ever made in the computer sound department.

I really can't belive that people can be that stupid, calling square waves and stuff MIDIs. That's incredibly awfull.

Edit : What I say can easily be proven by googleing "horrible NES midi" : http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=horrible+NES+midi

by Jagasian on 2005-09-20 (#4733)

MIDI got a bad reputation back when PC computers had sound cards capable of playing midi files, but not capable of using high quality "sound fonts". So you would have a really nice song sound like a bunch of bleeps and bloops on these cheap PCs.

by tepples on 2005-09-20 (#4735)

MIDI players for Tandy sounded like NES 2A03 or C64 SID music. MIDI players for Sound Blaster and other cards with the AdLib FM synthesizer chipset sounded like Sega Genesis or Capcom CPS music.

"Horrible MIDI" must just mean "tracked with synthesized waveforms" as opposed to "tracked with sampled waveforms" or "compressed recording of a live performance" as is used in many ps2 games.

by Disch on 2005-09-20 (#4736)

I hear over and over that MIDI can sound good -- yet I have yet to hear a single one that doesn't sound like complete crap. I've even heard SEVERAL MP3 recordings (made by .mid enthusiests) of MIDIs played with so-called "good" soundfonts... and they still sucked.

Though granted... I don't know the details of .mid and how it works interally -- I'm not going to believe the pro-midi banter everyone spouts until I hear it for myself. And so far I haven't. And until I do... I say:

MIDI SUCKS

by Jagasian on 2005-09-20 (#4737)

There is nothing stopping a midi from simply playing a mp3. That is, it plays an instrament that is nothing more than one 5 minute sample. midi is strictly more general than formats such as mp3.

by tepples on 2005-09-20 (#4739)

Jagasian wrote:
There is nothing stopping a midi from simply playing a mp3.

Other than that the MPEG audio file has to be distributed separately from the MIDI file perhaps? There appears to be no widely supported format for embedding samples as system exclusive messages in a standard MIDI file. You must be thinking of MOD or its progeny, which stores a sequence (a la NED) but also stores a mini-soundfont to play it with.

by Memblers on 2005-09-20 (#4740)

MIDI is really only good for what it's supposed to be - a 'Musical Instrument Digital Interface'. So if you don't have the exact hardware a song was written for, it always will sound all screwed up. MIDI really shines in applications like Midines (http://www.wayfar.net/)

by tepples on 2005-09-20 (#4741)

Memblers wrote:
MIDI is really only good for what it's supposed to be - a 'Musical Instrument Digital Interface'.

So what's the Interface for sending Digital audio sample banks to Digital Musical Instruments? There's the "Sample Dump Standard" that runs as a SysEx over MIDI, but I don't see wide support, especially given that the maximum data rate of MIDI is 25 kbps (not counting start/stop bits).

by Bregalad on 2005-09-21 (#4747)

MIDI is basically not designed to listen to songs, but rather to show the notes of a song while be still able to hear how it sounds at the same time. Composing tunes are much easier with a MIDI tracker than with just a piano and some paper, like did the composer before the 21st century. You can easily put notes, then listen to them immediately and see if it sound good or not, and edit it if not. I think "traditional" composing is better to get great melodies, but it horrible to get any form of accompagnment.

The fact that MIDI sucks is a bad popular belief, because they noted that their favorite songs didn't play right in that format. And the fact to think that the NES plays MIDIs is just AWFULL !
Playing a five-minute sample in a MIDI sample is possible as long as you have a sound cart that support sound font swapping, so you're able to make your own samples. It's memory is probably limited, tough.

A format that really sucks is MP3, simply because it has a terrible recording quality.

Quote:
"Horrible MIDI" must just mean "tracked with synthesized waveforms" as opposed to "tracked with sampled waveforms" or "compressed recording of a live performance" as is used in many ps2 games.

I'm against this stupid popular belief because MIDI is justly tracked with sampled waveforms, while the NES does outputs synthetised waveforms. I think that the SNES outpouts something closer to MIDI than the NES, and, reading the SNES hardware reviews, everyone says the opposite ! Isn't that horrible ?

by Bregalad on 2005-09-21 (#4752)

Just quoting from a Mega Man review :
Quote:
Wait; is this... old school Nintendo sound? AHHHHHHH, turn it off, turn it off. Hardy har, just kidding. Hopefully you won’t judge this game on the sound. If you do you are a terrible person. Just kidding, again... Lots of beeps and lots of boops and, sometimes there are even bops but, unlikly anything that will alter your life.

That makes simply me mad. I can't understand why this review from that f****ing bastard was even approved. I don't think I wil browse gamefaqs anymore, actually. I'm too much scared. Not only they have a lot of poor-quality reviews, but also there is a lot of f***ing publicity. The only good point of that site is that *any* game, even as unknow as possible, is on database.

by Nessie on 2005-09-21 (#4753)

Of all games, how dare they criticise MEGA MAN? Oh, the countless hours I've spent with my guitar playing old MM tunes... Elecman's song is just wonderful.
It's a real shame video game music isn't taken seriously just bc it was made for crappy hardware. I mean, what would Secret of Mana be without those heavenly musical themes?
I've even made several covers on various game songs with Reason (using my MIDI keyboard ) but all my non-geek friends just laugh at my geekiness. It seems they just can't see (hear) past the blips and bops.

-Martin

by blargg on 2005-09-21 (#4755)

Quote:
It's a real shame video game music isn't taken seriously just bc it was made for crappy hardware.

It's a shame you consider the NES (and other systems of that era) to have crappy sound hardware. I think what makes something crappy is when it is claimed to be something else. NES sound is a crappy substitute for the SNES SPC sound processor, but it's not crappy for a simple analog sound chip.

by tepples on 2005-09-21 (#4763)

Bregalad wrote:
A format that really sucks is MP3, simply because it has a terrible recording quality.

At least MP3 beats DMC at the same bit rate.

blargg wrote:
NES sound is ... not crappy for a simple analog sound chip.

If the 2A03 had had a sweepable resonant low-pass filter on each channel like the TB303 and Moog synths did, it might not have sounded so "crappy", instead approaching the sound of FM synthesis.

by Bregalad on 2005-09-22 (#4780)

Quote:
At least MP3 beats DMC at the same bit rate.

Lol, you're right. But the only time I've heard a NES music recorded in MP3 format (it was MM2 I believe), I found it plain horrible. The nice sound of a pure pule wave the channels makes is sounding bad because of low sampling rate and interpolation.
I admit the sound chip in the NES honestly is rather limitated and odd, in newer titles. The first time I heard a NES sound (I already have a SNES and a PlayStation) I was instantly disapointed. I enjoyed so much the music in SNES and PS games that I was pretty much disapointed to hear simple analog sound, but at least I knew it was a simple analog sound and not MIDI at all. I eventually take taste to it, and now I enjoy it pretty much, even if I still prefer sampled music. I wouldn't qualify the NES sound as to be horrible, but simple would be the right word. I actually prefer good analog music (aka later MM games, Just Breed, Final Fantasy 3, etc...) to bad sampled music (Soul Blazer, Dragon Warrior 5, Super Double Dragon) that sound horrible from my viewpoint because they had bad and low-quality samples. However, I prefer good sampled music (Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger, Tactics Ogre) that have high quality sound samples to bad analog music (Super Mario Bros. 1, Dragon Warrior 1, Final Fantasy 1) that have great music but terrible sound quality.

by dXtr on 2005-09-22 (#4783)

I don't get it why people compare nes music to lets say psx music, it's a style in it self. you don't compare dnb music to classical so why sampled to analog? and by the way, analog can kick digitals ass(?) anytime

by Nessie on 2005-09-22 (#4793)

blargg wrote:
Quote:
It's a real shame video game music isn't taken seriously just bc it was made for crappy hardware.

It's a shame you consider the NES (and other systems of that era) to have crappy sound hardware. I think what makes something crappy is when it is claimed to be something else. NES sound is a crappy substitute for the SNES SPC sound processor, but it's not crappy for a simple analog sound chip.

Yeah, I meant to say that it performs poorly compared to modern hardware (which I assume is what those GameFAQ fellows were comparing it to)
And it's a shame that the songs themselves are discarded as crap just bc the hardware they were written for in many ways is primitive compared to modern hardware.

-Martin

by tepples on 2005-09-22 (#4797)

If they think NES games' music is crap, then set them in front of NT2, show them how to use it, and ask them "Can you come up with something better?"

by Bregalad on 2005-09-23 (#4822)

Bah, they just like critics things, but they are probably not even able only to do worse that what they say to suck.
The MM music is incredibly good, and such things made me mad. It insults both the NES and the Mega Man series. Reviews are supposed to be written in function of the game's time period, but less that 50% of them respects this rule.

by Celius on 2005-09-23 (#4832)

I actually kind of like something about NES music, with the awesome Square waves, and the Triangle wave, I think it's kind of pretty, hahahahaha. No, jk. But I actually think there's something cool about the NESs instruments. Yeah, just thought I'd give my exciting opinion on NES music...

by Guest on 2005-11-15 (#6604)

tepples wrote:
Bregalad wrote:
A format that really sucks is MP3, simply because it has a terrible recording quality.

At least MP3 beats DMC at the same bit rate.

blargg wrote:
NES sound is ... not crappy for a simple analog sound chip.

If the 2A03 had had a sweepable resonant low-pass filter on each channel like the TB303 and Moog synths did, it might not have sounded so "crappy", instead approaching the sound of FM synthesis.

bah, i wouldn't have wanted the NES to sound anything like FM synthesis. it has its own sound-- and i wouldn't change it for anything.

if you want to make music for something like an FM synth, go over to the genesis... or use VRC7 or something.

by blargg on 2005-11-15 (#6606)

Quote:
[the nes] has its own sound-- and i wouldn't change it for anything.

if you want to make music for something like an FM synth, go over to the genesis... or use VRC7 or something.

Amen. The desire for monoculture is pervasive.

by Bregalad on 2005-11-15 (#6608)

Actually I like the sound of FM synthetis like the Genesis much less than the NES. I personally found worse to have terrible imitation of instruments than to use just analog sound, the best by all is still to have fair imitated instruments. So that's why it's an insult to say the NES output MIDIs, not only it is an insult technically, but also the sound of MIDIs back in the time was even worse than the sound of the NES.

by tepples on 2005-11-15 (#6611)

What a lot of people perceive as the "MIDI sound" is really the sound of FM synthesis, developed at Stanford University and licensed to Yamaha for commercialization.

The first widely popular video game console in the United States to use FM synthesis, which was patented by Yamaha at the time, was the Sega Genesis. (It also included a PSG identical to the one in the Sega Master System, which could output 1-bit noise and 50% square waves.) The first widely popular sound card for personal computers based on the IBM AT architecture was the AdLib, which was also based on a Yamaha FM synth. Millions of people were exposed to Yamaha FM through AdLib cards as well as through Creative Labs' Sound Blaster cards that included a clone of the AdLib chipset, and millions of people were first exposed to standard MIDI files through Creative's MIDI driver that worked on AdLib or compatible chipsets.

Therefore, among consoles that were popular in North America, it's the Genesis that "sounds like MIDI". Apparently, the Genesis is said to sound closer to the NES than to the Super NES, furthering the misconception.

by Great Hierophant on 2005-11-20 (#6836)

Quote:
The first widely popular sound card for personal computers based on the IBM AT architecture was the AdLib, which was also based on a Yamaha FM synth. Millions of people were exposed to Yamaha FM through AdLib cards as well as through Creative Labs' Sound Blaster cards that included a clone of the AdLib chipset

The Adlib can be used on any PC, whereas AT architecture implies a 16-bit ISA bus and at least a 286. It is quite a stretch to speak of an "Adlib" chipset when speaking of the Adlib Sound Card. The Adlib is really just a chip, the YM-3812, with an ISA interface. The Sound Blaster may rebadge the chip, but Creative used discrete Yamaha chips until the days of the AWE32.

When one speaks of "midi sound", they associate the FM synthesis of the Adlib with the low end of that sound. The Adlib was suited to midi because it had pre-defined instruments contained within the chip, as opposed to the NES where the sound composer had to create each sound manually. The problem with game music was always how to keep the size of the music down while keeping the quality high. Unfortunately, there is no quality control in the standard and to get good midi you need a good synthesizer module, which costs serious money. Midi is one way to do that, but today sound compression techniques and larger media do its job more consistently and don't require the need for such modules.

by NewRisingSun on 2005-11-27 (#7013)

GameFAQ reviews are crap. Most old games' reviews are, but GameFAQs are in particular. Reviewing an old game is so much more difficult than reviewing a current one. To properly judge graphics and sound, you need to know

a) what is possible on the old hardware (hardware knowledge)
b) what other games of the time were like, how the game being reviewed compares to its contemporaries (market knowledge)
c) how to get old games running in their correct configuration (just because it somehow runs without crashing doesn't mean that this is how it's supposed to look/sound). This is especially a problem for classic PC games; typical mistakes are not recognizing PCjr/Tandy 1000 support, CGA composite color graphics, playing back MT-32 music on a modern sound card with a bad "MT-32 emulation mode".

Most reviewers know neither, writing nonsense like "well, looks like crap, but hey, it's 15 years old, so considering the age, the graphics are good blabla". If they're a real piece of work, they'll complain about "ugly bright colors" because they're using the Nesticle palette.

As for MIDI: it's a way of exchanging (MIDI protocol) or storing (Standard MIDI file) song performance data (somewhat like sheet music), not store sound data. It's designed as a tool for composing music, not playing it back; in fact, you'll find that a lot of the music you can buy on CD has been produced in the studio using MIDI. However, if you abuse it as a consumer playback format with your so-called "high quality sound fonts" (cough, cough), it's your fault, not the format's.

For classic PC games, you won't get around MIDI. Here you must be careful to play it back on the device the music was composed for. To play back classic PC game music properly, use a Roland MT-32 sound module (original, not a software emulator, not an MT-32 "soundfont") if the music has been composed for MT-32 (rule of thumb: if it doesn't support General MIDI), or a Roland SC-55 if the music has been composed for General MIDI (rule of thumb: if it supports General MID). Then it will sound right, in many cases better than a Super Nintendo or an Amiga.

Great Hierophant wrote:
The Adlib was suited to midi because it had pre-defined instruments contained within the chip, as opposed to the NES where the sound composer had to create each sound manually.
The Adlib's YM-3812 does not have pre-defined instruments within the chip. I think you're confusing this with the VRC7's YM2413 (OPLL) chip; that one had built-in instruments.

by Bregalad on 2005-11-27 (#7016)

I 100% agree with NewRisingSun. People writing reviews SHOULD make sure about what they're talking about before reviewing, else they have better to shut up. There IS good review on GameFaqs, but there is way too much bad ones.
And yeah, the fact that the NES produces analog sound instead of the digital sound usual to people cannot be compared to a storage format, as the MIDI is. MIDI is "supposed" to sound bad beacause the sound font playing it back will never sound like the original song, but it's a storage format where you actually store a melody and NOT a audio waveform, like in all the most popular music format. So yeah, people say that MIDI suck and that MP3 is cool, that the NES sound suck and the Playstation 2 sound is cool, and they don't even know what they're talking about.

by Disch on 2005-11-27 (#7017)

Bregalad wrote:
And yeah, the fact that the NES produces analog sound instead of the digital sound usual to people cannot be compared to a storage format, as the MIDI is.

Analog and Digital in this context are nothing more than buzzwords.

All sound (or at least all sound you hear) is analog. It has to be... or else you wouldn't hear it. Digital sound is nothing more than the representation of audio through 'digits' (numbers). Of course.. you can't really listen to a big string of numbers... so the digital sound has to be converted to analog for you to actually hear it.

So yes, the NES produces analog sound. But so do CD players, PCs, TVs, and every other device on the planet.

Also... before it gets converted... NES sound is also digital! All computer generated sound is (unless you have one pretty insane computer... though I don't think such a computer exists). Before those square waves get converted to analog sound, they're nothing more than a stream of 0000FFFF0000FFFF's (digital).

So all audible sound is analog. And all computer generated sound is digital at one point... but is eventually converted to analog when its played back. Somewhere along the line these terms got mishmashed and 'digital' suddenly meant 'high tech' or 'high quality' or something equally nonsensical.

I always thought it was strange/silly when I read in docs that the NES had "5 channels: 4 analog and 1 digital" :P

Just thought I'd pop in with that. I'll leave now ^^'

by Bregalad on 2005-11-27 (#7018)

Digital means that the sound playback is from sequenced samples, and anolog means that the sound playback from a basic waveform, not from sequenced data at all. Instead of talking about analog/digital sound, talking about anaglog/digital sound source would be a bit more correct.

by Disch on 2005-11-27 (#7020)

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=digital
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=analog

Bregalad wrote:
Digital means that the sound playback is from sequenced samples, and anolog means that the sound playback from a basic waveform, not from sequenced data at all.

I have never heard these definitions before... and to be honest, they sound rather made up. =P

But like I said... the terms 'digital' and 'analog' got mucked up from being thrown around in this context.

Somewhere along the line, people started to hear 'digital' and instictivly thought 'high quality'... and eventually 'digital' became a buzzword that no longer meant what it really means. I can guarantee you some people think SNES sound is digital because it resembles instruments while NES sound is analog because it sounds like beeps and boops. I've actually heard someone claim that in the past. Your definitions are the same nonsense, just rephrased.

But if you want to use digital/analog to distinguish between basic/complex waveforms... that's your call. All I'm saying is that's not at all what the words really mean ;P

I don't mean to make such a big deal out of this... it's just a pet peeve of mine. Right along side people who say the NES has "8-bit graphics" when in fact it does not.

by tepples on 2005-11-27 (#7021)

NES may not be "analog" per se, but it's still "virtual analog", meaning that it has the same capability as an analog synth. Pulse-width modulated oscillators, integrators (which turn a square into a triangle), and sample-and-hold noise generators are common analog circuits.

by Disch on 2005-11-27 (#7029)

tepples wrote:
meaning that it has the same capability as an analog synth.

An analog synthesisor could produce any kind of sound it was designed for... it's not limited to just basic waveforms.

Although I doubt anyone would create a super-complex analog synth... since it's just so much simpler/easier/cheaper to go digital.

I feel like I'm hijacking this thread though... sorry ;_; I just wanted to speak up against using analog/digital as meaningless buzzwords.

by Great Hierophant on 2005-11-27 (#7031)

Good music is as much a matter of taste as are good graphics, the tools can only get you so far. Consider the sound programmer like a composer, a master of the notes but there are far more skilled players of the instrument. The hardware is his orchestra, it only is as good as the music its playing. Bad musicians can mangle the greatest compositions, second-rate composers can write music not worth a great musician's skill. The orchestra may or may not sound better with higher quality instruments. The best composers composed for what was on hand.

As an analogy, Baroque composers like Bach or Handel composed for pipe organs and harpsichords. The piano as known by Classical composers like Schubert and Beethoven was still being developed. Consquently, Bach and Handel's compositions generally sound better on the older instruments. They also tailored their compositions to take maximum advantage of the musical qualities of the older instruments. When played on a piano, generally because the older instruments are not available, they will sound different. The organ was better suited to a particular type of style, church music, and the piano another style, concert recitals. Musicians generally don't use one for the other. The Baroque composers mainly composed for church and the aristocracy while the Classical composers often composed for the more bourgeois tastes of the opera house and the concert hall.

by Bregalad on 2005-11-28 (#7050)

Hehe, if you want the NES sound is to the moderen SPUs what the Harpsichord is to the piano, that's a fair compasraison. I think a piano can't replace an harpsichord, because it hasn't the exact same sound. However, I didn't have much chances to hear real baroque music on real harpsichords, because you can only hear it in concerts that will be very long and eventually become very boring, even it's interesting during the first 15 minutes, such music comes quickly boring.

by Bregalad on 2005-11-28 (#7052)

Disch wrote:
Although I doubt anyone would create a super-complex analog synth... since it's just so much simpler/easier/cheaper to go digital.

By the way, I always asked myself how digital samples are created. Recording a real musician playing a note is not reliable because of echo and impresition in recording, it will sound a lot noisy, and create sample 100% by hand in an analog way would need countless hours of work for poor results....

by tepples on 2005-11-28 (#7061)

Bregalad wrote:
I always asked myself how digital samples are created. Recording a real musician playing a note is not reliable because of echo and impresition in recording, it will sound a lot noisy

Professional sound rooms minimize echoing and outside noise. Computers with moving parts are located outside the room. Digital noise reduction, which works by recording typical noise, taking its Fourier transform, and then subtracting typical power from the recorded signal's Fourier transform, cleans up any remaining noise.

Or you could just get cheap, have me shout "Bingo!" into an 8-bit Sound Blaster set to record at 11025 Hz, and then upsample by 3 and convert to DPCM. (Rate $0F is within 2% of three times the 11 kHz supported by old PC sound cards.) DPCM on the NES has about a -24 dB noise floor, and you can get that even in a low-end consumer environment by using a "gate", which in practice means just cutting off the near-silence before and after the interesting part of the sample.

by Bregalad on 2005-11-29 (#7071)

Yeah, I recording real instruments is possible, but sure it isn't easy. I don't think that video games company did record their own samples, they probably bought them from some sound company.
However, "techno" sounds are probably created anologly instead.

by tepples on 2005-11-29 (#7079)

Bregalad wrote:
However, "techno" sounds are probably created anologly instead.

Or through a digital signal processing algorithm that implements the same frequency response as the analog synth. A lot of the sound of acid house (TB303) is just a resonant low-pass filter with a variable cutoff, and that's easy to approximate digitally or even in real time.

When I said "NES has the same capability as an analog synth" or when others say "NES has analog sound", the likely intended meaning is the reverse: that a typical analog synth can be configured to closely approximate each of the six distinct waveforms supported by the NES tone generators.

by RushJet1 on 2005-12-31 (#7874)

well, i like that analogy of the harpsichord and organ and how composers composed just for those, so they sound different on piano. this reminds me of the nsf -> midi program that gigo and hi made awhile back, if you take any simplistic song and convert it to MIDI, it sounds just fine, even better in many cases-- but if you convert a song that truly uses the NES's hardware (anything by tim follin or konami?), it will sound either really weird or awful.

about nes sound chip
by lord_Chile on 2006-02-01 (#8901)

i read that Apu have 5 channels.. 4 analogue.... 1 digital (dpcm)

but another people says that all is analogue.. what is happening?¡?

by tepples on 2006-02-01 (#8904)

All five channels are digital in the sense that they're generated by feeding bits to a DAC. Four of the five produce waveforms that an analog synth is also capable of.