No, not the $1 billion dollar* blockbluster movie** starring myself*** coming to a cinema near you.
* Zimbabwean Dollars
** blargg played the evil villian.
*** I did all my own stunts y'know.
I'm talking about videogame companies like, well, all of them who release a brand new console onto the market and then less than a year later the '<INSERT VIDEOGAME CONSOLE HERE> Lite' is released which is 15% lighter, more stylish and so on.
What you get is basically what the console looked like when it had passed the design phase but then they make a few changes here and there so they would have an inferior product for initial release. Either it becomes bulkier or the colours are wrong or whatever.
Just take a look at the original NDS and compare it to the Lite version released not that long after. Why couldn't they have made that the original? Don't tell me they couldn't have done it like that because they could have.
I respect that with the GB -> GBC the technology increased significantly so that a better product could be released but otherwise, its just a rip-off.
What do you guys think? Do you agree with me or are you gonna point out that this is another one of those mad rants of mine?
My DS lite got shoulder button problems and a broken bottom screen, and my DS Phat is still holding strong.
And the GBC was released right when the GBA was almost finished.
You don't think two years of hindsight and technological improvement is enough to explain the DS Lite? (Especially the hindsight.)
rainwarrior wrote:
You don't think two years of hindsight and technological improvement is enough to explain the DS Lite? (Especially the hindsight.)
I am a little confused here. Are you saying you agree with me? If not, then why didn't they design the original DS like the Lite? Why did they release a console they decided within 2 years needed to be redesigned?
Just look at sales of the PSX when it was relaunched. The point is since then these companies have realised the wealth of re-releasing a console.
No, I don't agree with you. I'm saying they designed the DS as best they could at the time. 2 years later it's due for at least a minor redesign to accomodate cheaper/faster/lower-power chip upgrades, plus they have two years worth of feedback from people using the device. Of course they're going to do a better design job the second time around. Also, launching a revised version of the console is good for marketing. Gets you a lot more attention than just silently improving the insides and not telling anybody.
Sounds like you don't have any experience with manufacturing or product research.
Market research is hard, especially if you don't have the billions of dollars Apple spends on it. Even harder if you don't want to get scooped in the first place.
Some things also actually get smaller with time, and it's easier to build things closer to tolerances after you already have a known-good production run.
Could they have released the DSlite in the first place? Sure, except for the screen—screen technology changed radically in terms of what was available for a given quantity of money in that two year window. (And still is, actually). But it would have been riskier and would have involved throwing out millions of units if they'd had any late-breaking mistakes they needed to fix.
I'm personally a big fan of "second-revised" consoles. I almost only have them, the only console I have fat is the SNES and PS2, SNES because the lite version was only released in japan, and PS2 because it's actually my Sister's but I'd really like to own a PS2 slim instead. My brother has a slim one since he left home.
I even imported a toploader NES all the way from USA, because no revised NES was released in Europe. And since then I only use it it is way better than the original product in almost every way. Although now I regret not having imported an AV Famicom from Japan and a 72->60 adapter, would have been more expensive but worth it.
Now I agree when more than one single revision comes out, when the revisions comes less than 3 years after the original and when the revision lacks features of the original, it is too much.
The Gameboy Micro, DSi and DSi XL were too much. The PS-One (is this what you're mentioning ?) and the PS2 slim and PS3 slim, and the USA Toploader/AV Famicom are without any doubt better than the original product, and couldn't have been made with the technology of the year the originals were released.
Using DS as an example, if it was just redesigned to pull money out of your pocket, why has it not happened with any other new DS consoles? They still use the 2nd revised shape, so apparently this time Nintendo believe they got it right.
Since I only buy consoles way past their original release date (i.e. when their prices are no longer abusive), I have the redesigned versions of many consoles. I have a Game Boy Pocket and a Game Boy Color, a Master System 2 (it was called 3 in Brazil), a DS Lite and a PS2 Slim. I do own more redesigned consoles than that, but I'm only listing the ones for which I do not own the original version.
One problem is that sometimes, console revisions make it harder to get homebrew running.
rainwarrior wrote:
Also, launching a revised version of the console is good for marketing. Gets you a lot more attention than just silently improving the insides and not telling anybody.
Precisely the point I said before about money-making.
lidnariq wrote:
Sounds like you don't have any experience with manufacturing or product research.
Market research is hard, especially if you don't have the billions of dollars Apple spends on it. Even harder if you don't want to get scooped in the first place.
I understand how market research works. And the likes of Nintendo etc. DO have the money to spend on market research. Don't these companies do some testing with members of the public before a console is released? Of course they do and I respect that 50 product testers are never going to be able to beat 50,000,000 users after the console is released.
I have also said that I know that technology progresses over time and to be fair computers are getting smaller all of the time. But when every console nowadays gets a re-release less than 2 years after it's initial release it is a total rip-off. Its now almost standard practice. And what about when they add a camera or some other features? People who bought the console on day 1 are getting left out. I get the feeling the companies are holding back on the real product until billions have been spent by gamers.
tepples wrote:
One problem is that sometimes, console revisions make it harder to get homebrew running.
Yep. Thats what they want.
You can try to simulate human wear and tear over years but you won't really ever get it right without releasing it to the masses.
Why don't PC makers try to take a bite out of the console market by promoting a set-top gaming PC? They haven't really done a good job of making it clear that a PC's HDMI output works with a TV's HDMI input.
There's several TV-oriented PCs on the market, like the zotac.
3gengames wrote:
You can try to simulate human wear and tear over years but you won't really ever get it right without releasing it to the masses.
99% of wear and tear on handhelds will be from button presses and dirt on the screen. The other 1% for people who have dropped theirs
.
WedNESday wrote:
3gengames wrote:
You can try to simulate human wear and tear over years but you won't really ever get it right without releasing it to the masses.
99% of wear and tear on handhelds will be from button presses and dirt on the screen. The other 1% for people who have dropped theirs
.
That's nowhere near the case. I've seen people break the screen by just hitting the screen hard, although that's their standard way of doing it. And even small things like mechanism for buttons need to be tested more than they are. Like I said, if it was a money grab, they'd keep doing it. But they're not, so there's no scam going on at all.
3gengames wrote:
That's nowhere near the case. I've seen people break the screen by just hitting the screen hard, although that's their standard way of doing it.
Now thats not normal wear and tear now is it?
3gengames wrote:
...if it was a money grab, they'd keep doing it. But they're not, so there's no scam going on at all.
Er, they are still doing it? What makes you think that we've witnessed the end of companies re-realeasing consoles to earn extra cash?
My Nintendo DS also the L/R button don't work even though it is the original model not DS Lite. (Once I was on some IRC, and they made some Nintendo DS homebrew program, I told them my L/R broke and they told me that the L/R does nothing in that program anyways for exactly that reason, because many of L/R broke buttons!)
tepples wrote:
Why don't PC makers try to take a bite out of the console market by promoting a set-top gaming PC? They haven't really done a good job of making it clear that a PC's HDMI output works with a TV's HDMI input.
I hate HDMI.
With help from someone else I have mostly made up a different digital video cable called "Digi-RGB" which is very simple, can use any resolution and uses eight bits per RGB channel (four clocks per pixel), all data is in one direction and it consists of eight balanced pairs labeled: RED0, RED1, GREEN0, GREEN1, BLUE0, BLUE1, CLOCK, SYNC. It may be adjusted slightly in future, and physical specification does not yet exist, nor does any implementation. (Resolution is known by clocks per sync)
I am in the process of designing a computer system which connect to TV and is primarily for games. It is not PC; it is a new system with its own hardware and software, all of which are open source and fully documented in the manual (although external hardware/software may not be). It has Forth and BASIC interpreter built-in, and is a single-tasking system; it can run native code too. System call interface is hardware-based; some of the hardware is restricted to use by the BIOS (including reading the BIOS ROM, hard drive, optical drive, debugger, and setting interrupt vectors), and is accessed by the "S" pin of a flipflop which will trigger NMI as well as enable these components, so the BIOS can access them. These restrictions can be bypassed by moving jumpers to allow everything access to full hardware. So it is a security system similar to how UNIX systems require the user to have permission to do certain things but instead is implemented in hardware, and the user can always bypass this and access everything anyways. It won't have HDMI; it will probably have composite video out, component video out, stereo audio out, stereo audio in. It also support game controller, USB, and infrared remote control. Not all details are yet known, however, but one thing known is it lack copy protection and is too difficult to implement malware and DRM.
They're making different itterations of the devices, but it's MUCH more than just a case. I don't see why you can't just accept it. And yeah, GBA+SP L/R buttons sucked too. They just can't get them right.
And yes it was normal wear and tear. They were playing, they hit the screen just like the did hundreds of times before, and it cracked. They didn't jab it in a raging fit, they were playing it. They play a little more aggressive than me and I'm a pretty damn good and hard gamer, but still wasn't anything terrible IMO.
I'm really amazed that I was able to pull off a L/R button repair on a GBA SP by shoving wads of aluminum foil next to the contacts to make the plastic press on the buttons harder.
The L/R buttons are made up of several pieces. There's the plastic part you normally press with your fingers, and the plastic part that pushes a tiny lever to hit the button. The button has a little rubber thingy covering it up, there's a thin black button behind that. When I had the GBA SP in pieces, I was able to hit the black button with a screwdriver and it registered as a button press. So I figured that I needed to put more "stuff" in there, so it would hit the black button more easily. And I just happened to use wadded-up aluminum foil for that. And it worked. Working L/R buttons that have held up well.
But I haven't tried this on any other kind of system.
zzo38 wrote:
I hate HDMI.
With help from someone else I have mostly made up a different digital video cable called "Digi-RGB" which is blah blah blah
Fantastic? Not really the focus of the thread, though... what Tepples was trying to point out was another opportunity for PC manufacturers to cut in to the gaming market...
I've found that (ugh) putting the corner of the DS or GBASP with the shoulder button on your lips and blowing extremely hard seems to help the shoulder buttons for a good few hours. It's a good temporary quick fix!
I don't really mind hardware revisions as long as the upgrade isn't required to play the "standard" catalog* or can be added on as an attachment like the N64 Expansion Pak or Wii MotionPlus. Not exactly the same situation, but it falls into the category of those that want it can get it, everyone else is largely unaffected.
*My brother would argue that an upgrade from the original Xbox 360 to the S model is required to play any of the games, but he may have just had some bad luck.
I don't get it WedNesDay you say people who bought the console on Day 1 are ripped off. Since you know that, you just have to not buy the console on Day 1 and wait for the second release to come out to get the console, so that you're not ripped off. That's what I always did.
If you are extremely greedy/poor, you might even consider buying an used original console some years after the revised console is released, it will sell for a very cheap price.
I don't see the problem.
Bregalad wrote:
I don't get it WedNesDay you say people who bought the console on Day 1 are ripped off. Since you know that, you just have to not buy the console on Day 1 and wait for the second release to come out to get the console, so that you're not ripped off. That's what I always did.
If you are extremely greedy/poor, you might even consider buying an used original console some years after the revised console is released, it will sell for a very cheap price.
I don't see the problem.
What and go up to 2 years without the latest console?
To be honest I never buy a PC game until it is at least 1 year old because:
1. The price comes down 80%.
2. It is fully patched.
3. All the GFX drivers are released for it.
4. PC is brand new/more upgraded so that it can run even better.
So... shouldn't this console rereleases make you happy? They tend to drive down the price of the original models.
Just a note: GBASP edge buttons are rubber, not the normal plastis.
But on the PC side of stuff, on Windows I'd run anything. It's Ubuntu or other OS's where the drivers usually need some tuning. My HD4250 never go fixed for Unity. Although I hate Unity with a passion so it's great.
rainwarrior wrote:
So... shouldn't this console rereleases make you happy? They tend to drive down the price of the original models.
It does in a way. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for technology improving things to the point that they can become ergonomic whilst still retaining their original purpose. Cheaper, better looking consoles yes. But not when I believe they have only re-released it to earn cash and may have added certain features not present on the original.
WedNESday wrote:
rainwarrior wrote:
So... shouldn't this console rereleases make you happy? They tend to drive down the price of the original models.
It does in a way. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for technology improving things to the point that they can become ergonomic whilst still retaining their original purpose. Cheaper, better looking consoles yes. But not when I believe they have only re-released it to earn cash and may have added certain features not present on the original.
Are you _complaining_ that they improve on a design? Sometimes original models are the superior one though, because later revs are just cost reduction (like Gamecube losing its digital AV port, Wii drops GC compatibility...)
It's not a rip-off if you don't spend your money. Don't buy something if you don't like it. I don't understand your problem.
loopy wrote:
Are you _complaining_ that they improve on a design? Sometimes original models are the superior one though, because later revs are just cost reduction (like Gamecube losing its digital AV port, Wii drops GC compatibility...)
It's not a rip-off if you don't spend your money. Don't buy something if you don't like it. I don't understand your problem.
Please read all of my previous posts to find an answer to your question.
WedNESday wrote:
To be honest I never buy a PC game until it is at least 1 year old
Then you miss out on multiplayer if most of the players have upgraded to the sequel with new rosters.
tepples wrote:
WedNESday wrote:
To be honest I never buy a PC game until it is at least 1 year old
Then you miss out on multiplayer if most of the players have upgraded to the sequel with new rosters.
I meant single-player of course. But to be realistic that is also not true as Counter-Strike is still in the top 3 most played steam games even after more than 10 years. While I agree millions will have moved on, there are still 100's playing old games like CS, TFC and so forth.
I still play UT99.. not nearly as much - and those that remain are hardcore - but I still play sometimes.
The original famicom had tons of problems. The controllers were known for wearing out, even though Nintendo had tested them and rated them for over a million button presses. Testing is by no means a silver bullet.
Same thing goes for software. Putting things out in the wild is a waaay different beast than any other sort of testing environment.
These companies have budgets, deadlines, suppliers, and shareholders. Consoles go through countless revisions, even with small things that most people don't notice, never mind massive changes with form factor or display.
And to top it off, these items are DEEP into the discretionary category of purchases. I fail to see how this is some Great Rip-off.
Ian A wrote:
The original famicom had tons of problems. The controllers were known for wearing out, even though Nintendo had tested them and rated them for over a million button presses. Testing is by no means a silver bullet.
If a problem like buttons wearing out arises within the companies first console a later revision is absolutely fine.
But improving battery life and screen brightness isn't?
rainwarrior wrote:
But improving battery life and screen brightness isn't?
Son you've clearly misunderstood me. What I dislike is when after two years after a console's initial release they re-release it normally looking a lot better and normally slighter smaller too.
I don't question the technological improvements behind it but rather could they have released the console with that design in the first place or did they hold out on us in order to relaunch it? It has now become almost standard practice.
I feel like the topic now loops back to this post:
viewtopic.php?p=97837#p97837
So what is this "Great" list of consoles where the 2nd revision didn't have big improvements? I myself don't know of any. A2600 jr? I dunno.
Quote:
I don't question the technological improvements behind it but rather could they have released the console with that design in the first place or did they hold out on us in order to relaunch it? It has now become almost standard practice.
The 3DS was available with a Mario Land bundle the day after Thanxgiving for 189.95. I held off on getting it expecting a better model to come out (That and a quick search indicated the 3DS doesn't do Flash). Sure enough...
strat wrote:
Quote:
I don't question the technological improvements behind it but rather could they have released the console with that design in the first place or did they hold out on us in order to relaunch it? It has now become almost standard practice.
The 3DS was available with a Mario Land bundle the day after Thanxgiving for 189.95. I held off on getting it expecting a better model to come out (That and a quick search indicated the 3DS doesn't do Flash). Sure enough...
Ta da!
3gengames wrote:
So what is this "Great" list of consoles where the 2nd revision didn't have big improvements? I myself don't know of any. A2600 jr? I dunno.
So where is this "Great" quote of my saying that 2nd revision didn't have big improvements?
3gengames wrote:
So what is this "Great" list of consoles where the 2nd revision didn't have big improvements? I myself don't know of any. A2600 jr? I dunno.
Wii Family Edition (no GameCube controller ports)
Genesis 3 (no power LED; a couple games don't work because they expect the TST instruction to be broken a certain way, unlike the Genesis 3 where it was made to work correctly)
GameCube revision (no component out)
Intellivision II (flat keypad)
PS3: No hardware PS2 support, no official Linux
tepples wrote:
3gengames wrote:
So what is this "Great" list of consoles where the 2nd revision didn't have big improvements? I myself don't know of any. A2600 jr? I dunno.
Wii Family Edition (no GameCube controller ports)
Genesis 3 (no power LED; a couple games don't work because they expect the TST instruction to be broken a certain way, unlike the Genesis 3 where it was made to work correctly)
GameCube revision (no component out)
Intellivision II (flat keypad)
SNES mini is harder to pull RGB out of, and definitely isn't going to give color difference signals
Many Genesis 2 models had poor audio (and some late Genesis 1s)
This argument is going around in circles.
The "revised" model isn't the one that gets initially released, because it often doesn't even exist yet. Yes, it's sucktacular when you buy something, then find out the "better" one is coming out in a few months, but that's just how things work. If it
really bothers you that much, then I would recommend you stay away from most smartphones, and basically anything that comes from Apple.
I wait for things to mature a bit, as well. However, there
does need to be a cutoff point, otherwise you'll be stuck in a "I wanted this, but I waited for the revision, but now this newer thing is coming out and I don't want that other thing as much anymore, but I need to wait for this newer thing to have a revision, blah blah blah" limbo where you never obtain anything.
Sorry dude, but this is just a common risk you have to take when you go to buy something. Not just video games, either. Things take time to develop, and we release our milestones. Why did Ford bother making any cars if we're just going to all have hoverboards eventually?
Perhaps the fear is that one will buy something and then it will soon go unsupported by the manufacturer.
tepples wrote:
Perhaps the fear is that one will buy something and then it will soon go unsupported by the manufacturer.
First of all, unless you buy something that's 10 years old, support for a device will usually continue even after newer revisions are released.
Second, if something's about to stop being supported, everyone probably already knows, except in super-extreme circumstances where the manufacturer suddenly and unexpectedly goes out of business.
It's marketing. They'll keep doing it as long as you keep buying them. So either stop buying them or stop complaining... I really don't see the point of this whole discussion. Would you be satisfied if they all went out of business and stopped making them all together?
I think we're better off debating how they should have never discontinued the NES (or should release another).
infiniteneslives wrote:
I think we're better off debating how they should have never discontinued the NES (or should release another).
No console should ever be discontinued. All companies should forever release new games for every console they ever made and periodically release redesigned versions of all consoles.
Heh, now that I think of it, TecToy is kinda like that with the Master System and the Mega Drive here in Brazil... The bad thing is that the games suck and the newer consoles are just crappy emulators.
tokumaru wrote:
No console should ever be discontinued. All companies should forever release new games for every console they ever made and periodically release redesigned versions of all consoles.
That or rerelease every game for each of its consoles on every successive console, just as movies from the VHS era were rereleased on DVD, and movies from the DVD era were rereleased on Blu-ray. Nintendo is half doing this with Virtual Console on Wii.
tepples wrote:
That or rerelease every game for each of its consoles on every successive console, just as movies from the VHS era were rereleased on DVD, and movies from the DVD era were rereleased on Blu-ray.
As long as the quality improves with each rerelease, as is the case with movies.
Quote:
Nintendo is half doing this with Virtual Console on Wii.
Problem is Nintendo tends to use bad emulators instead of remastering the games.
tokumaru wrote:
As long as the quality improves with each rerelease, as is the case with movies.
Some fans of the original
Star Wars trilogy would disagree.
OK, as is the case with
most movies.
infiniteneslives wrote:
I think we're better off debating how they should have never discontinued the NES (or should release another).
Someone needs to release a functional 1:1 NES clone. I'm tired of all the shitty clones. Why can't anyone release something that doesn't have off colors, sound, cart port wiring issues, etc? It shouldn't be so hard to just make a NES.
MottZilla wrote:
Why can't anyone release something that doesn't have off colors, sound, cart port wiring issues, etc?
Because designing, validating, and fabricating a 5.0 V ASIC is expensive, as in many, many thousands of dollars for the first unit, for something that might not see a lot of sales. "Off colors" depends on precisely replicating the analog circuit path of the NES. But all of this might be helped by
the APU and PPU schematics that org is working on.
tokumaru wrote:
No console should ever be discontinued. All companies should forever release new games for every console they ever made and periodically release redesigned versions of all consoles.
The NES is currently in its 4th major revision, the Wii. The 5th major revision (WiiU) is pretty close by.
tepples wrote:
Because designing, validating, and fabricating a 5.0 V ASIC is expensive, as in many, many thousands of dollars for the first unit, for something that might not see a lot of sales. "Off colors" depends on precisely replicating the analog circuit path of the NES. But all of this might be helped by
the APU and PPU schematics that org is working on.
Isn't the copyright on the chip design
long expired by now anyway? Are there any legal barriers to someone refabricating the original chips at this point? I don't know what other kinds of patents might still be in effect, but it seems like the problem of chip design is something we might be able to bypass that this point.
Patents expire after 20. But I don't know how easy it'd be to reproduce an IC from pictures of masks designed for a long-obsolete fabrication process, nor how to make a reproduction controller whose Control Pad doesn't feel sloppy like that of every controller not made by Nintendo or Sony, nor how to market an obsolete console that plays mostly out-of-print games.
You can't just cheaply "copy" a chip that you don't have the original design to. You have to go through the whole process that org is doing in his current thread (or pay someone a LOT) of money to do it for you. And even still getting an exact analog match for sound/video is difficult compared to the digital design of the CPU and all. Basically the only viable option is to redesign it from the ground up. But the problem with that is what everyone's complaining about with it not being a perfect match.
Quote:
Heh, now that I think of it, TecToy is kinda like that with the Master System and the Mega Drive here in Brazil... The bad thing is that the games suck and the newer consoles are just crappy emulators.
This organization sells a $10 Famiclone in the form of a computer so kids can play educational games. It seems to be recruiting volunteer programmers to make what is basically NES software (You can see some 6502 code and yy-chr being used in the introduction video montage). The games are probably lame but the idea is still interesting.
http://www.racketboy.com/journal/playpo ... -the-worldhttp://playpower.org/
infiniteneslives wrote:
You can't just cheaply "copy" a chip that you don't have the original design to. You have to go through the whole process that org is doing in his current thread (or pay someone a LOT) of money to do it for you. And even still getting an exact analog match for sound/video is difficult compared to the digital design of the CPU and all. Basically the only viable option is to redesign it from the ground up. But the problem with that is what everyone's complaining about with it not being a perfect match.
At that point, to replicate perfectly the NTSC color generation circuitry from the original 2C02 PPU seems not worth the effort - if a chip is to be re-designed and re-fabricated, a better RGB look-up table implementation somewhat like the 2C03B did would be preferable.