Hey Nesdev, I've started what will be an ongoing series as I count down my personal top 100 NES/Famicom games list.
Yes, there are already plenty of NES top 10?s, top 25?s and even top 100 lists all over the net. So why should you care about my top 100 list?
My aim here was to make a unique list that goes beyond simply my picks and my thoughts about them. This list was carefully crafted based on my experience of well over seven hundred individual titles for both the NES and Famicom. My criteria for this list was based on three factors – Overall appeal, uniqueness, and how well each have aged.
This list will include every kind of software ever written for the hardware, whether it be NES, Famicom, unlicensed, prototype, homebrew or Hong Kong original pirate – if it was sold in some forum, it's fair game for this list. The only type of games I have excluded are hacks of existing games. While many of these are incredible, I may at some point in the future write a separate list for these alone.
So here's part 1, #100-90. I will be continuing to work on this series with ten games per post. I hope you enjoy and discover some hidden classics you might have missed the first time around!
http://satoshimatrix.wordpress.com/2011 ... st-100-90/
Good article. The first thing that popped into my head was this:
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long time fans continue to scratch their heads why there isn’t a modern update or remake of this classic title.
The first mission of Wii Play is a huge homage to Clay Shooting with some Duck Hunt cameos.
That's true, but I mean a real new Duck Hunt on Wiiware or something. It's rather surprising it hasn't been done.
Question of scope: You plan to include "every kind of software ever written for the hardware, whether it be [...] homebrew" but you require games to have been "sold in some forum". I take it this excludes homebrew games that work on an NES but have never been sold on a cartridge.
"The only type of games I have excluded are hacks of existing games." Let me guess: no SMB2 (J), a mission pack sequel to the FDS version of SMB1.
I don't consider SMB2J to be a hack of SMB1. I consider SMB Forever to be a hack of SMB1
Here's part 2 of my ongoing look back on the best of the best for the NES and Famicom. Here's #89-80. Hope you guys enjoy and maybe learn of some hidden gems!
http://satoshimatrix.wordpress.com/2011 ... ist-89-80/
Man, I love Mendel Palace! Once you get a hold of how they arrange the cards on the floor, you see it in a whole new light.
I also love how in old nintendo games you would bust your ass to save someone and just get a kiss. EDIT: or a burger. Thanks for playing!
I think StarTropics got rated too low.
I love the "Fun facts" about the games.
Thank you for showing me a NES Boulder Dash:D
By the way: Kaettekita Mario Bros. is pretty expensive
A nice little list you have going there.
the train keeps on rollin'. Here's part 3, #79-70.
http://satoshimatrix.wordpress.com/2011 ... ist-79-70/
I hope you enjoy and discover some hidden classics you might have missed the first time around!
What the hell is Pirate Super Mario World doing on a top list? Sorry, but that game is a Sonic Genesis, a total porting disaster, not a gem.
play it with the GG code. It's actually really quite decent once the deceleration bug is fixed.
Man that really is a bat shit insane dig dug commercial.
Thanks for sharing that! I have to agree about picking up the original cart. I loved Dig Dug II as a kid, and recently wondered about the first one. I found the cart on ebay and have been loving it ever since.
BTW, I don't know what happens when you beat the first one. But when you beat Dig Dug II you start over but the color scheme is changed up IIRC. I may be wrong on that though, guess I'll have to break it out again and check.
Sorry about the delay guys!
Here's
part 4, #69-60
Enjoy!
Alright guys. After a delay I tried to avoid, I've got the next part finally finished. Here's
part 5, #59-50 I hope you enjoy!
Be sure to leave your comments. I love hearing from you guys.
I wouldn't get to worked up on any delays, I'm still trying to keep up with you personally
I don't have much to say but this should be a lot of work to write all those reviews for all those games ! (not to say you had to pick 100 games among a 1k+ collection which was probably a lot of work too).
I just quick-read them, but they look like very well written.
I'm sure I'm going to discover a few unknow gems among the games you lists (when I'll have the time). Shadow of the Ninja looks prettty damn cool and I haven't heard of this title before.
I have to agree though that it's really weird a pirated chineese SMW game made it on the list. I haven't tried it, and graphically it looks amazing (well it's just ripped SNES graphics but I'm surprised how well it works), but I bet the gameply is crappy, as with all chineese pirated games I've ever played.
With all due respect, you shouldn't bash something until you have personal experience with it. As you astutely surmised, I underwent extensive backgroun playtesting to determine which games would make the list and which would only be honorable mentions. I more I played Super Mario World pirate the more I realized it isn't nearly as shotty as I would have thought, and it's not only rather good among pirates, but also the entire library at large.
The Super Mario World pirate is rather incredible as far as Hong Kong Originals go. It may only be 28 stages to the Mario World's what, 96? But still, it shows a huge effort on the Chinese pirates. Even though its a backport, everything had to be created from the ground up which is quite a feat.
It does have a flaw with the physics engine that causes mario to come to a sudden stop when you jump from full speed, but can be corrected with a simple 1 line GameGenie code.
So yeah. I urge you guys to try playing it first (with the GG code to fix the running bug). I think you'll find it's a lot better than you'd initially think.
Can I safely assume that "Time Lord" won't make the list?
With a few notable exceptions, I'm not a big fan of most of Rare's NES games. Although I own and have played Time Lord in preparing this list, I'll give the spoiler that no, Time Lord is not among the top 100 NES/Famicom games of all time.
Dwedit wrote:
Can I safely assume that "Time Lord" won't make the list?
Question for Satoshi time!
Will any Dizzy game make it into the list?
I'm not British, so I don't have a particular connection to the Dizzy games, though I don't think they're bad. I do rather like Go Dizzy Go, but I don't think it'll make the list, no. Maybe as an honorable mention.
The problem is as I stated on the offset, that the NES library is so massive that to narrow it down to just 100 means that there's a lot of really good games that don't get picked only because there's no room for them after my personal preferences. If your favorite NES game doesn't make it to the top 100, all it means is that I don't have enough of a personal connection with it to put it in the list.
I love Dizzy, great music and amazing graphics, and good gameplay too. That's a shame, but still, I think it's an okay list.
Not even Hebereke/Ufouria?
Hey guys, I'm not dead yet! Just been super busy with school and my best friend's wedding. I've finally finished the next entry so
here's
part 6, #49-40 I hope you enjoy!
I was just reading the Zelda 2 entry, and you mentioned that the Famicom Disk System used FM synthesis. This is not correct. Even though it sounds a little like an Adlib card, it is actually wavetable synthesis with a 64-sample wave. It also supports vibrato and sweep envelopes.
Thanks. I'm not an expert on the FDS hardware at all, so I need these sorts of corrections. I'll be sure to edit the post.
Vibrato is technically frequency modulation, but it's not frequency modulation synthesis because the modulator runs at
low frequency (LFO), not audio frequency like in the Yamaha OPL/OPN chips. Hardware vibrato might be responsible for the confusion between the Game Boy/PC Engine style wavetable channel in the FDS and proper Yamaha style FM synthesis.
I'm really enjoying this countdown; almost every entry contains some details that I was unaware of. e.g. I had no idea that the premise of the Wai Wai World games was so cool. Keep up the good work!
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Vibrato is technically frequency modulation, but it's not frequency modulation synthesis because the modulator runs at low frequency (LFO), not audio frequency like in the Yamaha OPL/OPN chips.
In fact the FDS vibrato can act in the audible range, it's frequency registers is identical to the main frequency register so you can even vibrato faster than the tone itself. However you can't change it in real time during the playback of the note, which is why it's wrong to call it FM synthesis.
Back to the top 100, I'm surprised that Zelda 2 and SMB2 scores so high. Personally I wouldn't think they deserves to be on a list, or maybe just for the "I am error" quote but hell this doesn't make it a good game. Anyway this is down to personal taste.
Crystalis at 43? That'd better be the last RPG on the list.... And I like SMB2, it's not a SMB game, but it is a good game. And yeah, Zelda 2 is a really shitty RPG graphics wise and then gameplay too, it's too fucking hard. The dragon warrior style map movement with crap graphics and then side screen gameplay with cheap enemies was total crap, any other game and it'd of been voted "worst NES game ever" but it was Zelda, so it was perfect I guess.
3gengames wrote:
And yeah, Zelda 2 is a really shitty RPG graphics wise and then gameplay too, it's too fucking hard. The dragon warrior style map movement with crap graphics and then side screen gameplay with cheap enemies was total crap, any other game and it'd of been voted "worst NES game ever" but it was Zelda, so it was perfect I guess.
While I agree that Zelda 2 is (by far) one of the series weakest entries (ONE of -- let us not forget the CD-i Zelda games! Bwahahaha!!), it wasn't THAT hard. At least, once you spend enough time in the world map grinding until you got Link up to Level 8. The process of grinding though was horrendous. Imagine killing score after score of slimes to get to Level 8 -- it takes days (I can attest to this -- my insane self actually did this back when the game was new).
But yeah... overrated due to the name on the box.
Zelda 2 was extremely easy if you knew how to slice through the Iron Knuckles' shields (do a crouching sword attack while descending from a jump). The same move even hits enemies which would normally require the Downward Thrust to hit.
I never needed to grind in Zelda 2 anyway. The game intends you do to Level 1 early, because all the enemies there give enough points to give you all your early level ups. Otherwise, it's a slaughter in your favor, but you barely get enough points to level up. The game can be hard if you decide to do "Hammer before Level 1". Who needs candles?
It starts out hard and then gets pretty easy actually after you learn a few spells and find a few life upgrades.
The only place anyone should be grinding is on tektites at the main town across the ocean. You kill a few with fireballs, head into town for free healing and magic recharge, head back out, etc. Pretty dang quick leveling, even though you need to use magic to do it.
And then it gets too hard again in the very last dungeon, but a good majority of the game is incredibly easy.
@dwedit + UncleSporky: Note that my mention of my method in no way constitutes an actual endorsement of the procedure. Furthermore, notice that I qualified the act as me being insane.
Of course, if you're not insane, and you make it to level 8 killing slimes over and over on the same screen at the start of the game, you might wind up becoming insane during the process.
Remember, kids -- just say no to wanton slime-slicing!
Dwedit wrote:
I was just reading the Zelda 2 entry, and you mentioned that the Famicom Disk System used FM synthesis. This is not correct. Even though it sounds a little like an Adlib card, it is actually wavetable synthesis with a 64-sample wave. It also supports vibrato and sweep envelopes.
Hell, even 'wavetable' synthesis is the wrong term. Wavetable synthesis is specifically built around a series of short waveform in tables that are meant to change the timbre of a sound over time. It can emulate filters and other style synths (like FM). Look up PPG synths. Sample based synth isn't correct either (which the SNES uses) because the waveform memory is just too short to hold a prerecorded instrument sound per se. The closest thing for term is Direct Digital Synthesis (DDS). Although DDS tends to use a PHA instead of a period divider, but the principle is the same. The only other terms I've seen labeled for such a channel is PCMPSG and WSG (wave sound generation). Though they aren't specifically official terms.
And even if the modulation of the channel reached audible range, it's using a period divider instead of a PHA... so it won't be FM synthesis.
Wooo! Busy me finally finished the next entry in my continuing look back at the top 100 NES and Famicom games of all time.
Here's
part 7, #39-30
As always, feel free to leave your thoughts both in this thread and in the comments section of the post itself. Enjoy!
Again, I'm disapointed a chineese pirate make it in the list, but other than that it's all games I don't know and that looks very good (some of them have amazing graphics for the NES !) so I'll be glad to discover them ! Good work.
I don't even have time to look up and play all the obscure games people I know recommend to me, let alone the ones from this list. But I follow this because some of them have really gorgeous pixel art for NES. So I'm happy that Pokemon Yellow Chinese pirate made the list, because I wouldn't have discovered it otherwise. I've been studying NES game graphics for a while now, so that my game can look as good as possible.
I don't care about what position my favorite games end up in, since what's "greatest" is all opinion anyway, and perfectly ordering a list this large to satisfy even one person is hard. But this has some
1. wonderful looking games
that
2. I haven't heard of
so it's a useful list in addition to its main goal.
Bregalad wrote:
Again, I'm disapointed a chineese pirate make it in the list, but other than that it's all games I don't know and that looks very good (some of them have amazing graphics for the NES !) so I'll be glad to discover them ! Good work.
Why feel disappointment? Try the game yourself and don't be so judgmental. The Pokemon yellow pirate is truly exceptional and wholeheartedly not only belongs on the list of the top 100 best games for the system, but high up on that list.
It may not be doing anything original, but its such a good copy of the GameBoy games it's truly astounding. It stands as an example of how Famicom pirates can and should be done.
Kasumi wrote:
I don't care about what position my favorite games end up in, since what's "greatest" is all opinion anyway, and perfectly ordering a list this large to satisfy even one person is hard.
This. Thank you for saying that as I completely agree with that statement. Too much attention is placed on the numbered order. For future top xx lists (SNES, GBA, etc) I'm thinking about not even including a numbering system at all.
Whenever I go I get people saying "bahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh the order how DARE you put StarTropics in the 90s", etc etc.
It's all about personal preference, and making lists like this is incredibly time consuming. If you don't like my order, make your own list and I challenge you to do it while making it half as presentable as my own.
Wow, Pokemon Yellow have really impressive grafics!
Thanks for showing it.
I like the idea of Pirate games getting into list.Because something I never heard about can show up.
Great work, can't wait for next 10 from the list, Satoshi;]
I try playing that pokemon, artistically it's great. Everything else lacks though. Especially sound, it's just bad. Always going, annoying, and just out of tune sometimes and it just hurts. I mean, it's good, but not top 100 material IMO, not polished enough despite it being a pretty good start. I like all other games though, I like the list so far.
Well it's true that I would probably not know a pirated pokemon existed on the NES if SM didn't say so in his list, but still, all pirated NES games I've ever played are complete crap, and if it has good graphics chances are they are just ripped/converted from an actual game that have those good graphics. (in this case I guess they are just ripped form a GBC game).
Bregalad wrote:
and if it has good graphics chances are they are just ripped/converted from an actual game that have those good graphics.
Still, it takes some skill to downscale the graphics for the NES. Lots of pirate NES games are great at simulating the look of SNES, Genesis and GBC games, proving that the NES is more capable than a LOT of licensed games would have you believe. I just wish the pirates were better coders (or have more time to work on each project).
Hey guys, been super busy lately and I know you've been waiting for this, so here's the long awaited
Top 100 NES Games Part 8, #29-20
Enjoy and feel free to leave your lovely feedback!
I couldn't say that Gradius II (a shooter) is better than DuckTales (platformer), but games that below to the same type. Well, DuckTales would stay together with DarkWing Duck and Rockman games.
Ninja Gaiden would be with Fist of the North Star; Contra is a shooter, but unlike Gradius.
Micro Machines! I'm too young to actualy remember toys, but I'v heard wbout them.One day I'll be a programmer good enough to hack this and make it play music
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Earth Bound is still a product of its time, plagued by long hours of mandatory level grinding
Then, why don't mention about
Easy patch for Eartbound zero?
Ah, and Super Spy Hunter..I always knew it's great game, but you helped me to realize why.Thanks.
Good news everyone!
I've finally got the next installment in my ongoing look at the best NES and Famicom games ever. Here's #19-11. Enjoy and feel free to leave your comments!
http://satoshimatrix.wordpress.com/2012 ... ist-19-11/
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Although the North American version is noteworthy for its highly detailed graphics thanks to the capabilities of the MMC5
Actually the game doesn't utilize MMC5 all that well. Same graphics quality could be achieved with simpler mappers, so most of the MMC5's capabilities go to waste.
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MMC5 may be impressive, but its nothing compared to VRC6.
This is just not true, as a whole technically MMC5 is way better than VRC6, and it's not even close. But I agree that when it comes to audio, VRC6 is better (the sawtooth is too cool).
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[...] you can get a reproduction from NES Reproductions. You’ll need a special version of Super Mario Bros. 2 that has a full pinset.
I don't think it's very appropriate to make publicity for this in the review. Especially considering that a "special" version of SMB2 is non needed technically, there is many other ways to do it.
On and it's fun you put screenshots from the alternate translation (the one that expanded the ROM to 1024kB).
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The Konmai VRC6 was a unique chip that allowed advanced visual effects similar to the MMC5
[...]
MMC5 may be impressive, but its nothing compared to VRC6.
No personal offense, but...
RAAAAAAAHHHHH NOT THIS AGAIN!!
I don't know who made this rumor but it's wrong !
Visually, the VRC6 can NOT do anything better than, say, the MMC3. The only difference comes down to the sound, and how banks are switched (which is the probably only reason Konami used the MMC5 for the US and PAL version).
Trust me, all that CV3 US/PAL does would have been possible with a MMC3 mapper, it's just they were lazy and didn't recode the engine to use MMC3's bank-switching scheme. The only place this game uses MMC5 mapper graphics is for the water in aquarius (they use a 3rd nametable for thw ater), and the VRC6 version does it with only two nametables, but there is glitches when scrolling.
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The superior sound, added to the reduced difficulty compared to the North American build,
This is just not true. You obviously haven't compared both versions closely enough...
PS : It's fun how they used a remixed Needle Man music in the Rockman 3 commerical. It really does sound like SNES music.
They did actually add a few very minor MMC5 enhancements for the US version of Castlevania 3.
After you beat the game, you get some new monsters which did not appear in the Japanese version of the game, a highly erratic-moving skull monster, and an armored knight monster. It uses an MMC5 feature to get more possible graphics for sprites, where it switches in graphics into the right pattern table after it has drawn the background tiles, but before it has drawn the sprites, then switches it back after it has finished drawing the sprites. Effectively, you can get twice as many possible tiles for sprites than otherwise. But it's only used to get 1k of extra sprite graphics. (They took out the Japanese font, and had all this extra room left, so they threw in some extra monster graphics)
The Japanese version of the game also didn't have the rising water level, that got added for the US version. I'm not sure offhand which MMC5 feature it uses, but it does something to switch to a secondary (blue) tilemap below the water line.
It's very interesting to know that there's merit on having both versions of the game !
Bregalad wrote:
Quote:
The superior sound, added to the reduced difficulty compared to the North American build,
This is just not true. You obviously haven't compared both versions closely enough...
Hmm, I played the North American version quite a bit and I remember the Japanese version being much easier. I only played a specific path through the game (I was doing a speed run using no spirit partners) and here are some examples of the North American version being more difficult:
- Enemies are more powerful. For example, get hit by anything in the last stage of the NA version and you lose 4 life bars. In the Japanese version, you lose 2-3 bars on enemies in the stage and certain attacks by the final boss.
- Speaking of the final boss, his third form is easier in the Japanese version because the lasers he shoots at you are half as long, making them a lot easier to avoid.
- The very last section of the final stage has you navigate a series of pendulums. In the North American version, there are bats that will attack you as you work your way from right to left, and they can actually be pretty tricky to avoid. No bats in the Japanese version. (Note: I once had a really good no-death run going up to this point and got clipped by a bat. 30 minutes down the drain
)
Dwedit wrote:
The Japanese version of the game also didn't have the rising water level, that got added for the US version.
It's in both versions. The US version is harder.
Also, in case people here aren't already aware, there are some MMC5-style homebrew NSFs out there that sound pretty nice.
@DWedit :
Thanks for the explaination about the enemies. I admit I never played much the game in hard mode, in either version, so I wasn't aware about that.
And yes the water rising level exists in all versions. It's just that in the japanase version, they switch to horizontal mirroring (vertical mirroring is used in the rest of the game), and have the top nametable for the status bar and level and the bottom nametable for the water. So they wrote a secondary scrolling routine for this sole leve and it has glitches when you scroll. The game also enable left-clipping only for this level, it even hides a part of the status bar ! Talk about rushed lazy work.
In the US/PAL version they made it with 3 nametables, and used the top two nametables for the status bar/level as usual, and have the 3rd nametable at the bottom, so they could scroll nomrally and not have glitches.
So this is the only place where the US/PAL version "looks better" because of the MMC5. All other levels are either the same or just palette swapped.
And for all those who claim the japanese version is easier, have you tried to fight death in the japanese version ? Because I can guarantee he's MUCH, MUCH, MUCH easier in the USA/PAL version. He's almost impossible in the jap version, in fact he's as hard as in CV1, but there's two forms !
There is other boss which are easier in the USA/PAL version too.
However I agree the last 2 levels and last boss is ridiculously hard in the US/PAL version and easier in the japanese verison, but that doesn't mean the japanese version is easier everywhere !!
Can't wait to see the top ten !
Alrighty guys, I've decided the best way to tackle the final top 10 is individual posts once a day for the next ten days. This way allows individual comments to be left for each entry, allows me time to write the next one without keeping you waiting for the whole thing, and avoids a monstrously large final post that would dwarf any I've done before. It will be a little bit better for everyone in my estimation.
Of course, you needn't agree with my choices, I'm just sounding my voice. I do hope for a discussion about these though, as they represent my absolutely favorites.
So here's #10.
http://satoshimatrix.wordpress.com/2012 ... s-list-10/
Okay, moving on to #7! This one was pretty exhausting. I rewatched several documentaries and did quite a bit of research and fact checking on my own for this, and even got some help by the great Frank Cifaldi of the lostlevels.org. I hope you guys enjoy!
http://satoshimatrix.wordpress.com/2012 ... es-list-7/
The best part of Rockman 5 was the Anime tie in. It was released much later in US as "Megaman - Upon a Star". Due to its unexpected educational content that comes right out of nowhere, and a 'nice surprise' involving Dr. Wily, it's firmly planted in "So Bad It's Good" territory.
Oh yeah! I totally forgot about the Rockman OVAs! I wonder if I should add that info in though...the eighth entry is already pretty lengthy as it is.
No Genghis Khan, so far... I will be disappointed if it doesn't make the list.
Only 2 games left! I see a couple high-profile games still on the board, but in the end I think I know what the top 2 will be (one super-obvious, one a semi-darkhorse.) Can't wait to see if I'm right!
Crystalis is 43 but Zelda is 4 and Final Fantasy is 7. Lol, lost ALL credibility there.
I thought Final Fantasy 1 was horribly overrated. Having played II and Mystic Quest before playing 1, I couldn't stand FF1. (Played Dragon Warrior 1-3 before getting the SNES)
3gengames wrote:
Crystalis is 43 but Zelda is 4 and Final Fantasy is 7. Lol, lost ALL credibility there.
That's an unfair statement. I haven't simply elected titles at random. In each article, I explain why each are worth playing. Even so, if you require more, allow me to explain.
God Slayer/Crystalis has real potential to be better than Zelda - It operates the simple fun gameplay forumla with an action RPG complete with level system. it's visually superior, and the audio is quite good.
On the other hand, it's deeply flawed in its execution. There is far too much level grinding required, and as far as I'm concerned, that's a big no-no in an ACTION game. If Crystalis was turn based, I could accept it, but not as it is. It's still placed #43 out of over 2000, so you can't say it didn't rank highly. All 42 games ahead of it are just ones I'd rather play over it.
Final Fantasy 1 takes a certain kind of retro gamer to appreciate. It's slow, it's methodical, and its engaging. As with Kirby's Adventure, this is one of those NES games I perfect to play as slowly as possible. You see all kinds of speedruns for retro games, so I guess you could call these two titles anti-speed runners.
I didn't play Final Fantasy 1 until after 4 was released for the SNES as Final Fantasy II, but even from an early age I appreciated Final Fantasy for allowing me to create MY party rather than following a predetermined character and plot.
Even as a young kid, one of the things I understood about videogames was that you could shape your own plot in a way impossible for tv shows or movies. In a sense, in Final Fantasy 1 you were your own scriptwriter. The four heroes you assemble is YOUR party, with the names YOU thought of for them.
I remember writing down tons of four letter names. The restriction obviously lead to childish names like BUTT and BOOB, but also LIT, JACK, SUE, MARY, KYLE, and many others.
So yes, Final Fantasy 1 is firmly in my top 10 NES games. It would also rank highly in my overall top 100, which I'm considering writing.
and then there's Zelda.
Zelda is a masterpiece, something I return to at least on a yearly basis. Of course it'll place in the top 10 and even top 5, it was just a matter of where. I think given what I've got ahead of it its placement is perfectly justified.
I actually don't like the first Zelda at all, but I am not going to complain about the order of your list. I can tell how much thought you've put into it.
But for the sake of discussion: I do understand how amazing Zelda was back then, but I have no attachment to what it was. I never played it then. I played (and beat) it for the first time late last year and the whole game stinks of "bad retro" to me now. "Bad Retro" is any game mechanic you remember less than fondly. Getting sent back to the very beginning after losing all your lives in a platform hell game. No wallkicks in Tetris. Starting with stupidly low health. (Metroid...)
I actually really enjoyed Zelda for the first 3 or so dungeons. Then it just became arduous. I started with the attitude of, "Okay. I want to see how far I can get without a guide." And that became, "Okay, I'll only use the map included with the original game." And that became, "Okay, I'll use a guide to find the dungeons, but not beat them."
At some point around when I had to play the whistle to uncover the entrance to the dungeon, I realized there was be no more fun to be had in the game. The monster blocking the dungeon? I actually THOUGHT of that, but talked myself out of thinking that was the solution. "There is no WAY they're gonna make me leave the dungeon to buy monster bait, after I walked forever just trying to FIND the dungeon."
But my brother who was watching said it was the only thing I hadn't tried. I didn't get the "AHA!" response that is what makes Zelda games fun to me. I was just PISSED I had to go and do that.
Eventually, I was playing the game on autopilot with the guide. I just wanted to get it over with to say I beat it, I had no attachment to what I was doing anymore.
I understand how people like this game. Once you know about all that stuff, you can beat the game and have fun doing it. You never have to think about it again. But for a new person, especially who didn't grow up playing games like this, it's just awful. (Badge of Honor Note: I did play NES games as a kid, but we didn't have a game console in the house until genesis.)
I was actually having a discussion with someone a long time ago about an RPG I like. They claimed it was SO hard, and I didn't think it was. But now that I think about my experience with Zelda, they totally had a point. The strategies that make the game easy can't really be found without playing the game a thousand times, or reading about them someplace.
I also started a game of Zelda 2 right after (I hadn't beat that one yet either), but quit when I realized I was just going to have zero fun wandering, or zero fun playing the game on autopilot with a guide.
Interestingly, Link's Awakening probably makes my top ten favorite games spanning all consoles despite having similar problems.
What immediately comes to mind is the Racoon and magic powder, but the hint is not awful just not hand holding. But that is RIGHT IN THE BEGINNING so that's even worse for new players who don't have any commitment to the game yet.
Then there is the trade sequence which has its moments... But since I know about how to beat it, the game is incredibly fun. And just walking around the overworld jumping around is more than walking in one direction at a time in Zelda... It's amazing how small things shape the experience so much. Also, it has dungeons that actually have cool puzzles, rather than the solution always being "push a block", or "kill all the enemies in the room."
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On the other hand, it's deeply flawed in its execution
Definitely. Crystalis' controls are horrible, and I mean HORRIBLE. The hit boxes are buggy, the hero doesn't stop to walk when you press the attack button.
You see this kind of stuff that makes you cry and throw the controller at the TV after a few minutes of gameplay. Personally I'd never put Crystalis in any top list, but that's not my list anyways.
And I won't do any comment about metroid being so high.... it's just another of those games that just make me throw the controller at the TV after a few minutes (and never want to play the game again). Bad controls in an action game ruins everything, no matter how the other aspects of the game are good.
FF1 is a good game but it's true I played it mainly because I was fan of it's sequels (not of the game itself). It's way too level-grindy but there is hacks that fix this problem.
Thanks for your detailed reply Kasumi. I can understand how frustrating and a chore Zelda 1 can seem now looking at it when you compare it to its sequels and much more modern games.
as I said in my review, Zelda was made for a time before the internet. Every single time you went "Oh I'll just look this detail up and move on..." you're chipping away at the intended experience.
Metroid. Zelda. Legacy of the Wizard. Final Fantasy. The Galgo 13 games. So many NES games I played as a kid were all done without ANY assistance, not even Nintendo Power.
With only my own wits, I have many memories of drawing my
own maps with pencil and paper. This is something I don't think modern gamers would ever consider doing in a million years.
Yet it is in the creation of your own maps that I think a true enjoyment and appreciation for these games flourishes.
Seriously, next time you play Zelda 1, try not to look up ANYTHING on the internet. If you need help, draw your own map and make your own notes! The feeling of satisfaction of clearing a dungeon on your own thanks a map you drew yourself is so much better than just typing gamefaqs or whatever.
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And I won't do any comment about metroid being so high.... it's just another of those games that just make me throw the controller at the TV after a few minutes (and never want to play the game again). Bad controls in an action game ruins everything, no matter how the other aspects of the game are good.
FF1 is a good game but it's true I played it mainly because I was fan of it's sequels (not of the game itself). It's way too level-grindy but there is hacks that fix this problem.
Yeah, I don't like Metroid either. I like the GBA remake, though.
As for Final Fantasy, I've never even tried it. I don't like (most) RPGs, because I feel the entire game model is built around wasting my time. I can't walk through the dungeon and fight the boss. I have to WASTE time making numbers go up before I do. Boss Fights aren't really skill based. If you get your butt kicked, you don't have to learn a new strategy if you don't want to. You just waste more of your time making numbers go up. I feel the same way about games like Harvest Moon. It feels like I am WORKING, but I am not getting paid.
When I play Mario, I feel like I'm making progress. I never see the same area twice. I have actual FUN playing a level.
When I play most Metroid games, I feel like I'm making progress. I get powerups, but I can get them in a not obvious order sometimes and because it's not turn based it's possible to thrash bosses with low health and beat the game quickly just playing smart and avoiding attacks.
In RPGs, you don't have control over your character. I might as well have fun rolling dice. I have never felt like, "You know, these battle menus make the game better."
A lot of my favorite RPGs could actually do without their battle system entirely, because they have cool puzzles in the dungeons. RPG battles feel like a waste of my time, all the time.
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Every single time you went "Oh I'll just look this detail up and move on..." you're chipping away at the intended experience.
Then the intended experience is even WORSE. I only looked at guides because the game was already SO NOT fun that I couldn't stand it. The whistle thing. If I didn't look that up, it would have been more than 8 hours of me looking for the old man the gives the hint, "There are Secrets where Fairies don't Live." Even then, the whistle? Which has a completely different effect everywhere else in the game? Logically, I would just discount the possibility of it doing anything else. I'd try things like bombing where the fairies don't live, and pretty much everything BUT that.
If up did nothing for the entirety of Super Mario Bros. except this one time, in this one place pressing it reveals a pipe that's required to beat the game would you defend that? Even with a vague hint to where the place was, I would try everything else first. I'd try crouching. I'd try throwing fireballs. I'd jump to look for hidden blocks. (BTW I do also have a beef with Super Mario Bros.' looping bowser levels as well) It's like the Xmen genesis game where you have to press the reset button on the console. Who's thinking to do that?
The intended experience should not be for me to feel exhausted and lost. It might be a personality difference, but I get no feeling accomplishment after that. I feel like I wasted 8 hours doing something that could have taken 5 minutes if I knew what I was doing.
Even as a kid I knew things like that were suspect.
(The above image is Sonic 3, Carnival Night Zone's famous Barrel. In case tumblr doesn't like hotlinking)
What if the problem is one like the above? You know what I did when I was young? I just stopped playing. I'm surprised I didn't do that with Zelda.
I HATED Sonic 3 because of that when I was young. I hated it until I knew the trick, and now I don't HATE the game but there's no excuse for that part.
Well different tastes for different gamers. I understand where you're coming from, but I don't agree. Mapmaking and all that really appealed to me as a kid, and it still does today. I like figuring things out for myself whenever possible.
Regarding that one part of Sonic 3, haha yeah I too have memories of getting stuck at that point for a little while, but you really just gave up? I'm not meaning to insult you or anything, but by contrast, I was probably stuck for about 10 minutes before I figured out that you need to hold up and down. I mean, it's not like Sonic 3 used a complicated control scheme. I just tried everything until I figured out what to to do.
Maybe you're best suited for modern games that explicitly give you tutorials and hints every thirty seconds.
Don't get me wrong, I like modern games as much as the next guy, but I hate it when games these days use artificial aids that discourage problem solving by giving you the answers to solutions or making the answers so blatantly obvious that there's no way you could miss them.
From the big progression arrow in Bioshock to button prompt reminders in Batman Arkham City these things are what ruins the experience for me.
It's completely the difference between Metroid on NES and Metroid Fusion on GBA. I do not EVER want to be told where to go or what to do; I want to figure out how to progress on my own.
You realise you can turn the arrows off in Bioshock right?
Yeah, I guess that was a poor example, but you get the point - modern game developers seem paranoid that player's will give up if you don't explicitly tell them how to solve even the simplest of problems.
It's very rare that I play something that doesn't at least mildly insult my intelligence as a player these days.
But these are of course, just my opinions. It's completely fine if you don't agree and your top 100 would be very different from mine.
Ya I see what you mean. Altough I do indeed think Bioshock is a poor example. Did you see that sequelitis on megaman x?
Yeah, I was just going to recommend you guys all watch Egoraptor's Sequelitis series. Although not strictly about what I'm saying he does address many of the same issues with modern game design that irritate the hell out of me.
Ironically enough, his jokes about Roll stopping to give advice really DO exist in the PS1 Rockman Complete Works ports as well as Megaman Anniversary Collection for last gen consoles. I don't think he played them or he would have mentioned the connection. It's eerie.
Kasumi wrote:
(The above image is Sonic 3, Carnival Night Zone's famous Barrel. In case tumblr doesn't like hotlinking)
Yeah, that barrel is famous among Sonic fans. It took me a while to figure out how to get past it... maybe a week or two. I was too much of a Sonic fan to give up! =)
SatoshiMatrix wrote:
With only my own wits, I have many memories of drawing my own maps with pencil and paper. This is something I don't think modern gamers would ever consider doing in a million years.
I remember when I was young being disappointed that the high scores weren't saved, and not understanding why. I ended up making a notebook which I attempted to track high scores of all my games. I think I was trying to make a point to my brother that I was better than him.
SatoshiMatrix wrote:
Hey, you probably already know about this book, but if you didn't, it gives even more insights into the game's history:
http://www.chrismcovell.com/secret/week ... puter.html
I guess I do like a certain degree of handholding. I want an in game map, but I don't necessarily want to be told where to go.
I want a DECENT hint if I'm totally stuck, but I don't want it forced upon me.
Skyward Sword is pretty bad in this respect. Fi kept telling me stuff I figured out before she started talking. But I can see how that would be totally useful for people who haven't been playing Zelda their entire lives.
I'll play games with a
steep execution curve, or arcade get a high score games or bullet hell games, but if I ever get stuck because I missed a single tree while trying to burn them all instead of the fact that I didn't time things well I'm finding something else to do. In one, I'm stuck because of something where I can see the mistakes I am making. In the other, I am guessing. If I wanted to guess I could play the lottery or something.
I'll play games that beat you down, but never ones that get you lost.
Kasumi wrote:
At some point around when I had to play the whistle to uncover the entrance to the dungeon, I realized there was be no more fun to be had in the game. The monster blocking the dungeon? I actually THOUGHT of that, but talked myself out of thinking that was the solution. "There is no WAY they're gonna make me leave the dungeon to buy monster bait, after I walked forever just trying to FIND the dungeon."
But my brother who was watching said it was the only thing I hadn't tried. I didn't get the "AHA!" response that is what makes Zelda games fun to me. I was just PISSED I had to go and do that.
I think that was the point. I remember reading in promotional material for Animal Crossing that the concept of a "communication adventure" began with The Legend of Zelda. The idea is that players would stumble upon things while playing, and then they would exchange these stories during recess and after school. At some point, someone would piece everything together and beat the game.
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What immediately comes to mind is the Racoon and magic powder, but the hint is not awful just not hand holding. But that is RIGHT IN THE BEGINNING
For anything related to raccoon-like characters, blame Japan's tradition of
folkloric monsters including the kappa (sea turtle), tanuki (raccoon dog), kitsune (fox), and red and blue oni (ogres). It takes the same sort of mind that would think up things like
jumping in the pile of leaves and getting a pile of tails or
Tom Nook putting on a Plumber Suit.
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I don't like (most) RPGs, because I feel the entire game model is built around wasting my time.
It's the same mentality behind the loads of unlockables in fifth and sixth generation games: encouraging people to buy games instead of renting them.
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I feel the same way about games like Harvest Moon. It feels like I am WORKING, but I am not getting paid.
When I play Mario, I feel like I'm making progress.
Let's compare to Animal Crossing. Before a certain point, I felt like I was making progress paying off my 1.4 million bell debt to Tom Nook. But after that, the endgame content (catch all the fish! catch all the bugs!) felt like work and I quit. I guess I'd be the sort of Pokemon player who quits after beating the Elite Four.
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Maybe you're best suited for modern games that explicitly give you tutorials and hints every thirty seconds.
Don't get me wrong, I like modern games as much as the next guy, but I hate it when games these days use artificial aids that discourage problem solving by giving you the answers
Do you hate games like Klax and Thwaite that give game tips before each of the early levels?
Code:
FOUR IN A ROW IS
WORTH TWO KLAXES
YOU CAN DESTROY TWO MISSILES
BY AIMING WHERE PATHS CROSS
I bet I know what #1's going to be...
Oh shit, you figured it out.
It's great to see MM2 being so high, it's also one of my favourite NES games !
The extra article is interesting too, I didn't know that Capcom originally didn't want to have a sequel to Mega Man, but that they still managed to make it during their spare time. That's crazy !
Yeah. Megaman 2 is a complete labour of love. It also features many ideas and enemy concept art originally intended for the first game, but abandoned because of space limitations. Megaman 2 uses a CHR double the size of the first game with more than twice the number of sprites from Megaman 1. Also pointed out by ROM hackers, there are stage remnants from Megaman 1 levels such as Bombman's stage within Megaman 2, meaning the game was build using the same code right over the original, again explaining how the hell it could have possibly be finished in a mere three months.
Unfortunately, Megaman 3 didn't have this luxury - it was build from the ground up and required a much longer development period, but Capcom were very anxious to get it out as soon as possible and were placing enormous pressure on Inafune and his team. Many ideas intended were Megaman 3 were left unimplemented simply because of rushed development.
If Megaman 3 had've been fully realized, if everything that was intended for it was in the game working 100%, I have no doubt in my mind it would have made Megaman 2 pale in comparison, but judging from their released versions, Megaman 2 has the polished edge over #3.
For those who want to see a quick easy visual recap of the top 100 NES/Famicom games 100-2, check this handy chart I put together. (56k warning)
http://satoshimatrix.wordpress.com/2012 ... ual-recap/
Hey guys, sorry about the delay - I'm finally done! Here's the last entry in my top 100 NES/Famicom games list!
Here is what I consider to be unquestionably the best game on the hardware. Thanks for everyone who has supported me through this! Rest assured, I will be doing top ## lists for other systems in the future, just probably not right away.
Anyway for now, enjoy!
http://satoshimatrix.wordpress.com/2012 ... es-list-1/
Thanks for writing it all!
Gamut, not gambit.
3gengames wrote:
Way to troll everyone.
I wouldn't have it any other way! In fact, you can at least partly thank Dwedit for the idea - I was thinking of a way to finish the list, and since I actually do like Action 52 in a so-bad-its-good way, it seemed fitting.
But I'm not a total troll - just read through it. Like a teasing girlfriend, you'll get to the goods eventually.
Great review. By far the best I've seen to date. I really appreciate you inclusion of history with the games, there's more to be appreciated than just the game play.
Thanks for the great read.
Gimmick ? Ok it's fun for a short while but #1 ?!?
I think sunsoft games are majorly overrated. Not that they're bad but they keep coming in top NES lists, and well I don't think they are all that good personally.
And yes Action 52 is so bad that anybody should play it !
I do love Gimmick! a lot myself (own a copy of the japanese cart in fact), so I should be glad to see it in a top ten list, but...
Despite being mentioned in every single post in the series, the most awesome NES game ever: Battletoads, was not considered to be worthy of any entry in an extensive NES top-100 list?
I know your list is just personal opinion, but that's just plain silly.
There were some picks I didn't agree with and many that I did, but regardless, I enjoyed reading every entry. Great job!
Battletoads is one of the best NES games.
hahaha, everywhere I post people are confused as why I didn't post Dragon Qarrior/Battletoads/Kid Icarus as they are normally in every such top 100 NES games list.
The fact is, I simply don't like them.
It's quite incredible you don't like Battletoads...
, but fair enough, you even took Action52.
Battletoads is a quality game, but it really needed infinite continues, and maybe a push-button code for level selection.
Yeah, Battletoads is one of the top games for sure.
And yes, we know you exclude/lower some of the best games because you don't like them already, no surprise there. :p
Zepper wrote:
It's quite incredible you don't like Battletoads...
, but fair enough, you even took Action52.
I hope you do realize that Action 52 was a complete joke. The idea was that Action 52 contains quite possibly the worst games ever made, and therefore, it's so completely awful overall that its in fact also the best game at the same time.
In other words, Action 52 is sort of the Schrödinger's cat of videogames.
But even so, I own Action 52 (I found a copy in the wild for a ridiculously low $40) and it's great at parties for how much and as much satire as I put into it, I actually do like the Cheetahmen theme song. The orchestrated version from nico nico douga is completely hilarious, and the mock-orchestra seemingly preforming it completes the illusion.
Gimmick again? Why people like this game so much
Anyway, it was fun to see all the counting last 10 down until "big A52 trolling" thingie.
Congrats, Satoshi:D
Denine wrote:
Gimmick again? Why people like this game so much
See "why you should play it" section.
I had a read, I know, I know. It's just me
The GFX are impressive, physics also, but It's just not my type.
Fair enough.
As I've said on the offset of each part, the NES and Famicom saw over two thousand releases worldwide. Narrowing that number down to even 500 worthy games is tricky, so you begin to see the problem of limiting it just to the top 100. My top 100 very likely is shaped different than most people's, and once you accept that you can appreciate it for what it is. The only thing I can say about my list is that I explain my reasons and stand by them. You are completely free to disagree and arrange your own top 100. In fact, I'd love to read it myself if you can back up your reasoning and give the level of detail I have.
I do kind of get the "Sunsoft is overrated" sentiment - e.g., outside of the music I think Journey to Siius is terrible - but Gimmick! is really good and certainly worthy of a top 10 spot if not the overall #1 position.
When you revealed #3, I wrote out your list and tried to rank some likely candidates for the top 2 spots and came up with this:
1. Mega Man 2
2. Gimmick!
3. Battletoads
4. Castlevania 2
5. Dragon Warrior
6. Ufouria
7. Kid Icarus
8. Metal Gear
9. Ninja Gaiden
10. Super C
Not too far off!
Thanks a lot for putting together the list, I really enjoyed it.
I got to say, I actually enjoyed reading your top 100 quite a bit and I wasn't expecting that. I'm used to the boring top 10 game article always listing the most obvious, mega-famous games that everyone know so reading an article that actually included good game that kind of passed under the radar was refreshing. I actually played a few game after reading because of your list. I finished Bucky O'Hare, Akumajou Special, Wai Wai World 2 and I'm playing Kabuki Quantum right now. So Thanks alot!
Hey guys, really just as an experiment, I decided to put all of the parts in the top 100 NES/Famicom games list I've been working on for the past few months into a single post to see if wordpress would even be able to handle it.
I need to make sure it works lol
word of warning: this post contains over 53,000 words, somewhere around 500 images, and about 100 embedded youtube links. I do NOT recommend it viewed on mobile devices.
I've gone back through it and corrected errors as I saw them, but I probably missed some. If you spot mistakes, let me know so I can fix them!
http://satoshimatrix.wordpress.com/2012 ... ll-in-one/
Takes a lot of memory here (using Firefox 10) and it hangs. Not worth loading it.
Suggestion: create a [+] to expand the info of a game, like images and videos. The loading time would be optimal.
Firefox 11. Didn't hang, but did use a stupid amount of memory.
Final count:
1,208,740 K plugin-container.exe
+ 371,324 K firefox.exe
Took... two or three minutes to load? I wasn't really keeping track of that. In any case, I wouldn't even do the (+) thing, I'd keep it in separate lists as it is now.
Even with flash block the page end up to take up 500MB+ of space. I'd say keep all the HTML in a javascript files and change the page that way. No loading new pages but the content just doesn't all get loaded at once. That would help a ton.