TV colors for Super Nintendo too saturated

Today, I tried out the NTSC Super Nintendo that I bought from eBay.
And I noticed that the colors are much too saturated relative to the NES.

When I got my CRT TV, I calibrated it so that NES games look good on it.
But when I connect the Super Nintendo to the same TV with the same configuration, the colors are too powerful, especially the red ones.

For example, when I play Powerman's stage in "Mega Man I" on the NES, the red background looks normal.
But when I play "Street Fighter II - The World Warrior" on the SNES, then the "Street Fighter II" logo, Ryu's red stage and the empty health bar are basically illuminating.

I know it's not the same red color between the NES and the SNES. But that's beside the point.
I can make the NES red illuminate just as well if I simply increase color saturation.
And if I decrease color saturation, so that the SNES looks fine, then the NES looks too pale.

Is this a known issue?
Do I really have to change the color values according to the current console everytime I play?

Or does this have to do with the cable?
For the NES, I use a standard yellow and white composite AV cable.
For the SNES, I use the one where you put the gray plug into the SNES and the yellow, white and red composite AV cable goes into the TV.

For the SNES, I'm using an authentic cable by Nintendo. The SNES came with some third party replacement cable that didn't work at all, so I couldn't compare it. (But I had bought the Nintendo one separately anyway.)
I bought my Nintendo cable in Germany since I assume they are all the same. Or are there known differences between the American and the European one or between the one used for the SNES and the one used for the N64?

By the way, my SNES PCB revision is SNS-CPU-GPM-02. (I opened it to check this.)

Doesn't the NES's red produce out-of-spec values, whereas the SNES doesn't? I wonder if that's behind it treating the two consoles way differently, though I wouldn't know what to do about it.

I don't know. Does it?

NES colors only have an amplitude of +/- 33 IRE, where as NTSC's red has an amplitude of +/- 63 IRE, so it makes sense that certain colors look dull on the NES.

That's a bit too technical for me.

What I'd like to know is: Have other people experienced this?

If you calibrate your TV, so that the colors look alright and similar to the palettes that emulators use, did you notice that the colors on the Super Nintendo are much too powerful?

Yes, the SNES outputs more saturated reds than the NES. Explaining the reason for this requires becoming very technical.

Your CRT TV assumes that NTSC-encoded signals use NTSC colorimetry. That means to display it correctly even though it uses modern colorimetry, it will apply a correction matrix to the RGB signals gained from decoding the NTSC signal, which in practice boosts the red channel. As the NES does not process RGB internally, but directly generates an NTSC signal, this is appropriate.

The SNES on the other hand internally process RGB directly, and SNES graphics artists chose RGB values based on modern colorimetry as seen on their development system monitors. Your TV doesn't know this, and therefore assumes NTSC rather than modern colorimetry, and boosts red when it shouldn't.

The solution should be to avoid the NTSC encoding-decoding process by getting the SNES' RGB signal directly, using an RGB cable.

So, it's not possible to change this by, for example, using a different cable?

A related question: If I connected a DVD player over a composite cable while the TV is adjusted to output NES colors correctly, will movies on the DVD look correct or will they look like the SNES with boosted red color?

Also, is there a way to calculate how much I have to compensate, so that the SNES image looks correct in relation to the NES image?

Fictitious example:

The colorimetry adds one third of redness to the picture and takes away one tenth of brightness.
So, if you take your TV's color value, divide it by 3 and then subtract this value from the color value: newColor = oldColor - oldColor / 3, then you get the color value that is correct relative to your NES output.
Likewise, you have to do newBrightness = oldBrightness + oldBrightness / 10.

Does colorimetry between RGB and NTSC allow for this kind of calculation or is it all a matter of manually adjusting the values?

Use an RGB cable. That avoids NTSC encoding-decoding and with it the NTSC colorimetry assumption.
Depends on whether the DVD player compensates for NTSC colorimetry or not. If it does not (and I assume most DVD players do not), then yes, DVD reds will get boosted as well.
Of course it's possible, but it's not feasible, because colorimetry corrections have to be done on linear-light signals, while normal RGB signals are "gamma pre-corrected". To compensate a given R'G'B' signal designed for modern-colorimetry (i.e. Rec. 709) to display correctly on a TV that assumes NTSC colorimetry, first convert RGB values ranging from 0.0 to 1.0 to linear light signals:

[R, G, B] = [R', G', B']^2.2222;

Then apply the appropriate conversion matrix:


And then back to gamma-pre-corrected signals again:
[R'ntsc, G'ntsc, B'ntsc] = [Rntsc, Gntsc, Bntsc]^0.45.

I'm simplifying, of course; the actual conversion from gamma-pre-corrected signals to linear light signals is more complicated, but 2.222/0.45 exponents are close enough for most applications.

For your convenience, here are a few examples.

NES signal when assuming modern colorimetry:

NES signal when assuming NTSC colorimetry:

SNES signal when assuming modern colorimetry:

SNES signal when assuming NTSC colorimetry:

I'm not sure how closely this matches your TV, but either way, you get the point.

Wait? Why did they change the color gamut on TV screens in the first place?

The modern colorimetric values are exhibited by rare-earth phosphors. Rare-earth phosphors replaced the silicate phosphors of the 1950s, which exhibited NTSC colorimetric values. The silicate phosphors were replaced because they lacked brightness and were long-persistent, leaving trails after moving objects.

(More details: http://www.earlytelevision.org/Deksnis/NTSCvsP22.html )

Thanks a lot for your detailed information.

You said I should use an RGB cable, so that the colors look right.
But what exactly does an RGB cable look like?

I'm using this cable:


And my CRT TV only has the composite (yellow, white) port and the standard RF port.
I don't have an actual RGB, SCART or S-video port.

So, when you say RGB cable, what do you mean?


Also (if I still have to use the old cable), when I decrease the color saturation on the TV for the SNES, should I change any other value too? Do brigthness and contrast etc. play into this as well?


And another question: The above cable: Are there differences between the PAL and the NTSC version or is this all the same product no matter where I buy it? And is the cable for SNES and for N64 identical or did they change anything?

RGB cable generally means a SCART cable and AV cables do differ between PAL and NTSC units as with controllers. Another layer of region locking that Nintendo practiced.

Well, SCART is European. And even though I'm German, my consoles are all original American NTSC devices. Same with the CRT TV that I use to play these consoles.

And cables do differ between N64, SNES and GameCube despite having same connectors. Most cables are made for NTSC machines and are typically very low quality.

In my case, I'm only talking about the authentic Nintendo cables, not third party ones:
Is there any difference between Nintendo's cable that they put into NTSC Super Nintendos and the one that they put into PAL Super Nintendos?
And is there any difference between the one for SNES and the one for N64?

If yes, what are the differences? And how can I distinguish the cables from the outside?
(Looks like even the original Nintendo ones exist in gray and in black/darkgray. Which one is from which time period?)

There is a difference, PAL cables have a 75ohm load resistor on the composhit signal, while NTSC cables do not have it and RGB cables have these load resistors on the RGB signals also. NTSC RGB cables have no resistors and instead DC blocking capacitors.

Using NTSC cable on a PAL machine will produce an image that is too bright when using a composhit cable and with RGB you only get a brief image that dims to black within few seconds.
Using PAL composhit or RGB cable on NTSC machine will produce a dark image that may go out of sync.
Gamecube RGB cable will be able to show composhit on a PAL SNES but not RGB, on NTSC SNES RGB is fine but composhit will be dark and sync is not guaranteed with all TVs.
PAL N64 cables should be equivalents of PAL SNES cables and NTSC N64 ones should match the NTSC SNES ones too.

How can there be an NTSC RGB cable if RGB means SCART and SCART is European?

Can you please show me an NTSC RGB cable?

So, is there a way to see if the cable is for PAL or NTSC?
What's the difference between the one with the light gray and the black/dark gray plastic? And which one is older?


O.k., thanks, I get it. You can stop this now.

Are you specifically talking about cables that connect to Nintendo consoles, or any TV cable? Because I have never heard this about TV cables in general.

Monitors with 15.7 kHz by 60 Hz analog RGB input include arcade monitors, professional monitors used in video production (such as the Sony BVM), and the AppleColor RGB Monitor for the Apple IIGS computer. Some TVs can be hacked to accept RGB by hijacking internal connections intended for the on-screen display. But I concede that RGB in the 60 Hz market wasn't nearly as common in home entertainment scenarios as SCART in Europe.

Yeah, but this kind of altering the TV is out of the question for me.


That's why I'm still wondering why I was suggested to use an RGB cable on an NTSC TV:

If this is supposed to be a SCART cable, then this isn't really applicable to regular run of the mill American TVs, so I'm surprised this cable was suggested in such a regular offhand manner.

If it's supposed to be another kind of cable (for example another SNES-to-composite cable, but some that recalculates the values accordingly), then I'd like to know what cable this is.


By the way, which of the SNES cable is the older one? The one with the light gray plastic or the one with the black/dark gray plastic? And when and why was the layout changed?


I'd be interested in this as well.

I suggested it because using an RGB connection is a sure way of avoiding the NTSC encoding-decoding process. I don't know at all whether it is possible to do that with your particular kind of TV. I'm not a technical support hotline that can give you the exact part number. It may well be possible that this is not possible with your TV, and that you just have to live with it, like generations of American gamers before you.

So, you are talking about a SCART cable? Or do you mean something different?

A SCART cable is one type of RGB cable. A JAMMA connection is another. A YPbPr trio of cables is yet another.

Whether it is "applicable" to American TVs is irrelevant, as my statement was not designed to be strictly applicable to American TVs. If your American TV has neither SCART nor YPbPr connections, then you cannot connect RGB signals directly, and then you just have to live with oversatured SNES pictures.

My question was: Which cable did you have in mind specifically for the Super Nintendo? You said "use an RGB cable" as if you mean a very specific cable.
So, I wanted to know: Which SNES RGB cable were you talking about specifically in the situation where I asked what I can do regarding the color issue?


Maybe I misunderstood you, but you explicitly said:


And so I was asking myself what kind of NTSC SNES RGB cable you were talking about.
SCART is European.
JAMMA is arcade boards.

You see why I was confused? What is an RGB cable that can be used for the SNES to avoid the NTSC encoding/decoding?

Because the multi out has slightly different pinouts and signal characteristics between the NTSC and PAL Super NES, the SCART cables for NTSC and PAL Super NES differ slightly. "Super Nintendo / Super Famicom RGB SCART Cables and sync information" on RetroRGB describes this difference, and "SCART to Display" on RetroRGB describes adapters to use a SCART cable made for an NTSC Super NES with a 15.7 kHz by 60 Hz analog RGB display whose connector is something other than SCART.

Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as an "NTSC SNES RGB cable", because it's not NTSC if it's RGB, if one uses "NTSC" to describe a particular method of encoding a color signal. One can say NTSC SNES RGB if "NTSC" refers to the U.S. region, or to a 525 lines/60 Hz scanning standard. (The original 1953 NTSC specification refers to an RF-modulated signal, for what it's worth.)
There is a cable: http://retrorgb.com/snescsync.html

If you cannot connect it to your TV, then it's a problem of your TV, not a problem of there being no cable, so stop asking why I bring up a cable that you cannot connect to the average American TV. Your average American TV with no RGB or YPbPr connection is forever and invariably doomed to displaying oversaturated SNES pictures.

No. It's just called "EIA Multiport" in America (and very uncommon), or JP21 with a different pin assignment.

NTSC and PAL units have different output circuits, requiring dedicated cables. A form of region locking, Nintendo did the same thing with controllers too and only way to defeat it is to modify the controller or the console. So "NTSC cable" reads as "Cable for NTSC machine" and PAL cable as "cable for PAL machine".

I don't think there was any official RGB cable for NTSC SNES (but there is the "Japanese SCART" which uses same connector as EU stuff but with a different pinout, but those are probably pretty rare if they do exist). Probably all the RGB cables you see on ebay are aftermarket stuff and made for NTSC machines and they will not work on PAL things, but with small modifications they can be made compatible (adding some resistors).

As far as the red-white-yellow (c....t ) cables go, PAL cables have an extra resistor on the video signal that NTSC cables lack. I mentioned earlier that this resistor is responsible for incompatibility. Cables you can buy in EU are most probably PAL cables and will not work correctly on a NTSC machine. If you are not sure that your AV cable in NTSC you may want to get one. If you have access to a multimeter you can determine that by taking a resistance reading between tip and barrel of the yellow connector, PAL cable will show 75 ohms and NTSC cable infinity.
I have no unmodded consoles to demonstrate how mismatched cable and console look unfortunately.

If that's the case, then it is so. I just wanted to check the possibilities. (Also, I'm not stuck to oversaturated images. I can simply adjust the image for Super Nintendo.)


So, what I still need to know regarding this whole topic:

Why does the SNES-to-composite cable exist in two layouts? One in gray and one in black. (And please note that both are authentic Nintendo cables, not third party ones):

Is there any difference between them?
Were these created randomly or do they point to a different time frame?

Do they differ in any way? (Assuming both are for NTSC of course.)


Which picture properties do I have to alter when adjusting the TV for colorimetry? (I.e. when the NES image is already fine, but SNES is too colorful and now I want to set the values for the SNES, so that they are as fine as for the NES.)
I already know that I have to decrease color saturation, so that the red is not so powerful.
What about brightness, contrast etc.? Sould they be altered as well?



For my NES, I'm using a composite cable that I bought in Germany and I never had any problems, even though the NES and the TV are both American.
Can you describe what kind of incompatibility may happen here?

@TmEE: I still don't believe it.

All online sources I have found state that video cables always have 75 ohm impedance; I found no mention of any low-impedance NTSC cables. I am using the same (European) cable for all my NTSC and PAL consoles and home computers, and it works without any picture degradation with all of them. Source for the claim that video cables in NTSC countries differ in impedance, other than your own experience?

@DRW: Does your TV have a service mode? That one may provide an option to disable the NTSC matrix. That option will typically be named something about "MATRIX" or "AXIS". Colorimetry has no impact on brightness or contrast, so there should be no need to adjust these between the NES and SNES.

No they are not different. It's not just for SNES, that connector works with multiple Nintendo systems. They have been making those cable for a very long time, and in several colours.

Yes, my TV has a service menu.

Those are the options:
TEST STEREO
TEST MONO
SEPARATION 2
SEPARATION 1
LEVEL
FM LEVEL
SHARPNESS
TINT
COLOR MIN
COLOR MAX
COLOR CENT
CONTRAST MIN
CONTRAST MAX
CONTRAST CENT
BRIGHT MIN
BRIGHT MAX
BRIGHT CENT
B. BIAS
G. BIAS
R. BIAS
B. DRIVE
R. DRIVE
V. SHIFT
V. SIZE
H. PHASE
H. VCO
CUT OFF
OSD H

I'm also attaching the service menu manual:



Which one is the oldest, i.e. the most retro, color here?

To the best of my memory, my launch SNES came with a grey one.

Nope, nothing matrix-related there. The Block Diagram lists an "RGB matrix", but that does not seem to be accessible from the service menu.

PAL SNES output circuit requires the 75ohm loading/termination in the TV AND the cable to get correct operating point of the output driver in the machine, without it the voltage levels are roughly twice the standard. Output circuit in NTSC SNES only requires the 75ohm load/termination in the TV to get correct output and having an additional 75ohm resistor in the cable will produce image that is roughly half the level of standard which may or may not work in all TVs. One of mine had hard time maintaining sync while other was just kind of dark with off colors (some sort of AGC in action) for example.
Transmission line impedance is another thing entirely here and unrelated to operation of the output circuits of the machines.

EDIT: Eviltim / Viletim is half the source of the info, other half is my own measurements.

EDIT2: I was experimenting a little with that resistor. On a PAL unit without the resistor the image is a bit brighter and less saturated looking. With the resistor the brightness matched RGB output and colors looked a bit more saturated. On PAL N64 the image is massively overbright without the resistor, skin Mario's face in SMK64 title is near white and super washed out, while with resistor it is as you expect.
My NTSC SNES (JP unit, but they share output circuit with USA ones) stopped working... I cannot test on it right now. I have no NTSC N64 to muck around with.
I tried to take photos but the camera has no manual exposure time setting and it managed to equalize the photos making them look almost the same as far as brightness goes so that's not very useful.

I'd still like to know whether there is actually a PAL/NTSC difference with regular composite cables, i.e. not SNES, but the simple standard cable:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_video

And if yes, what's the difference in practice?

No.

Both ends are "supposed" to be impedance matched, with a 75Ω resistance to ground (on the receiver) or effective output impedance (on the driver).

With the SNES A/V out, they apparently moved the impedance matching on the driver side from inside the console to inside the cable. But for the RCA standard, the impedance matching always is supposed to be inside the sender/receiver.


On the other hand, I've encountered plenty of lower cost devices that don't include this impedance matching.

A regular cable is nothing but some shielded cable with specific connectors on each end, nothing to do with PAL, NTSC, SECAM or anything else whatsoever. As long as device on transmitting end sends what receiving end expects all will work as far as transmitting a video signal goes.
And in some cases with specific SNES variations the transmitting end requires some help from the transport(cable) to get a signal that receiving end expects.

O.k., to make absolutely sure that I get this right:

Your statements about the differences between PAL composite cables and NTSC composite cables (like the statements about 75 ohm load resistors etc.) only refer to the SNES (and N64 and GC) cable, not to generic cables, right?

I'm asking because NewRisingSun seemed to be confused about it as well:

So, to summarize it:

Do you claim that the SNES composite cable is different in PAL and NTSC regions while the standard generic composite cable that you use for connecting the NES or any random DVD player to a TV is the same worldwide?

Or do you claim that not only is the SNES composite cable different between PAL and NTSC, but also that a general purpose composite cable from Europe is built differently from a generic American composite cable?

Do you say that, for example, using a European composite cable to connect an American DVD player or an American NES to an American TV will present a distorted picture while the American composite cable will produce the right picture in this case?
Or were your statements about internal hardware differences and picture distortion when using the wrong cable only referring to those specific SNES cables?

The resistor issue applies only to cables with Nintendo's "multi out" connector. A 75 ohm terminating resistor is inside the Control Deck in cables designed for one region or inside the cable in cables designed for the other region. For picture sources with straight RCA outputs, as on the original NES or a DVD player, it's always inside the Control Deck or other picture source.

What I have been saying ONLY applies to Nintendo AV cables for SNES, N64 and GameCube, with the proprietary Nintendo AV connector on one end and RCA or SCART connectors on other end. NIntendo made different cables for each region and made sure that there are inconveniences when trying to use a cable for one region with a console from another region.

It doesn't apply to any generic cables such as stuff you can buy from various stores to connect things like DVD players, VHS decks and other AV equipment to one another. Only Nintendo consoles with Nintendo cables to generic TVs.
EDIT: NES for example uses generic cables, it doesn't use anything proprietary (except french RGB NES, which introduced the proprietary multi AV connector that SNES, N64 and GameCube use).

O.k., thanks for the confirmation.


Alright, I'll buy an American SNES cable then. I bought mine directly from Germany, even though the console is an NTSC one.


Can anybody besides lidnariq tell/confirm which of the cables (light gray or black plastic) is the older one? (For nostalgic purposes.)

The black ones are pretty much guaranteed to be low quality aftermarket stuff.

Not really. I bought a black one by mail order directly from Nintendo several years ago.

I don't know or care which colour is older though, or if that's even a meaningful distinction.

I have only seen grey colored original cables but never a black one, all black ones I have seen have been chinese things.

Yeah, black ones are usually third party crap.
The Super Nintendo that I ordered had one of these, but, surprise, surprise, it didn't work. Fortunately, I also ordered an authentic one, so I was able to test the Super Nintendo. But that cable was from Germany, so I'll order one from the US again.

However, there are authentic black Nintendo cables. In one of my previous posts, I showed one with the Nintendo text written on it.