Progress Thread - Lala the Magical

This will be our second entry for this compo. The game is called Lala the Magical and it builds on "Lala Prologue", a small game we released back in 2010 for the ZX Spectrum and Amstrad CPC home computers.



The game is a side scrolling platformer. You control Lala, a wizard wannabe, accross four stages. First you must gain access to where your master hides his magic wand, so you can travel to the Sky Palace to find three gems. Once you get the wand, you can perform two spells: the first, activated using A+B or B+down, creates a floating platform beneath Lala while she is airborne, allowing her to traverse otherwise imposible sections of the palace.



Each room in the palace is guarded by a door which has to be open using a switch. The search of the gems in the palace is timed: once the sun sets, the palace disappears and you have to start over, but the doors you have opened remain open, so you can progress faster. There is no time indicator, but the time of the day will we reflected in the sky background, which will get darker over time until it's pitch black.



Once you have the three gems, you return and learn that your master, now defenceless (as you have taken away his magic wand) has been kidnapped. The fourth stage has lala fetching several gold coins. After getting each coin, a flying ghost will be released, and it will fly around chasing you making it harder to progress. Thankfully, waving your wand pressing B scares the ghosts away.



The game has been developed for NROM256, but we created some cutscenes and a nice title screen and ending sequences in a separate 32K+8K set of roms, so right now the game runs on a 2 PRG / 2 CHR iNES mapper 66 GNROM cart (80K). I'm in the progress of converting it to a 64K UNROM so it can be included in the cartridge (it will fit, as the second ROM with the title and cutscenes takes less than 16K and I can stuff the compressed graphics in the remaining space).

The game is almost finished. I know we taked about this but I want to be sure: We plan to release the ROM to be downloaded from our site as soon as the game is completed. Is that OK, or you guys prefer if we hold it until the compo has finished?

The title screen and cut scene looks great. The game look promising. The level in general look very good. My only concern is compared to the cut scenes, the main character in the game doesn't have the same look and seems more bland. After seeing the title screen if feels off a little bit.

So A+B or B+Down summons Rush. Do you also get new spells by defeating bosses that use those spells? I'm just curious how Krion Conquest-like this game will end up being.

And I agree with Banshaku: decide whether you want her to dress modestly or fanservice, and keep it consistent unless there's a plot reason.

I really love the title screen, it is quite stylish and at first gave a darker tone. From this screen it is hard to say how the character is clothed but It seems intentional and should be kept that way.

If the character could look like the cut screen a little bit more it would be great, unless the character shown there is someone else, which is a possibility. And since the character is small, I guess that it's hard to give a lot of details so maybe it is intentional after all.

Keep up the good work, like your style and can't wait to try it!

I think that would be ok. I don't see any specific rules against it, as long as there isn't a commercial release. I am not the rules committee, BTW, so I am speculating.

Looking good!

Thanks for the comments. As for the choice of the sprite graphics, we followed a simple design which worked with most backgrounds, was easy to follow and to animate, and took few patterns. The screens don't show the final palette, though, that's currently WIP.

As for the matter of releasing it, I know there's no written rule about it, I was just wondering what you guys thought. We have no problems on holding it back until the compo has ended. I don't know how the progress of the other entrants is going, and I don't want to do anything which would harm the compo.

I have to agree with the others: The main character needs a major overhaul. Every opponent and every simple block looks more detailed than the main protagonist.

Her in-game appearance should match the artwork. Why does she wear a sexy short dress with arms and legs uncovered in the cutscenes, but her in-game sprite looks like she's wearing pajamas?

And as someone who welcomes a game with a female protagonist, I'd suggest to make the sprite more feminine in general. That character in its current state could just as well represent a boy. Let the player see that he's playing a woman.

Also, I would make the main character taller. At least 16 x 24 pixels. A side-scroller with 16 x 16 player characters often looks weird since the upright-standing human is exactly as tall as a fireball or a pot.

I respectfully disagree, 16x16 pixels is more than enough for a sprite, if you know how to push pixels. Here's a quick 5-minute sketch, based on the sprite shown above:


In my own game, I was able to animate sex scenes at 16x16, just because I can.

That sprite looks great And I agree, 16x16 can be more than enough.

We have added more detail to the sprite. It looks good and animates quite nicely The sprite is 16x18-16x22 depending on the cell.

The sprite still has very little to do with the artwork in the cutscene.

Cutscene: Fanservice-y sexy witch. Huge hair. Firm ass. Mini dress. Boots.

Sprite: Looking like a five year old girl in one-piece pajamas.

And?

What "and"? Don't you think that the sprite and the display in the cutscene should match?

I mean, I understand if the style is different. After all, you cannot really show a small sprite in the same style as a full-blown artwork.

I do the same. Have a look at the sprite in my avatar: It is drawn in the style of first generation Nintendo games while the artwork in the title screen will be an anime drawing.

But the actual elements will be the same: In the artwork, she will still have a white midriff-baring t-shirt, a ponytail and jeans. It's not like the artwork suddenly shows her in a black leather overall and with a mohawk.

But in "Lala the Magical", this is not just a stylistic choice, nor an issue of NES limitations, but an actual content-wise discrepancy: The suff she wears in the cutscenes is different from the stuff she wears during gameplay, even though the sprite could have been drawn to match her artwork.

In Super Mario Bros. 3, the mushroom houses and spade minigame show largely the same elements at different scales. The small versions have slightly less color detail (Mario's black overalls and skin-tone sclera and Toad's skin-tone cap) due to palette limits, but the only difference in elements is that the proportions on the Toad in the spade minigame look a lot younger. (Game sprite Mario's ears are F'd up as well though.)


It's OK to have her wear a different costume in a cut scene, so long as there's a reason for her to have changed clothes.

And now Lolo is jealous that Lala is no longer a ball creature.

I highly doubt this will be the case.

I can't dress the sprite black as it would clash with most of the backgrounds and make the game harder to follow. I left out the gawn to make the feet more evident. I can't add that much hair in the sprite, as well. I can't do much more to her body shape, as it has been deliberately drawn in Chibi, SD style. I think it works best for small sprites with limited palettes.

In the cutscenes, I haven't much restrictions so I can draw the character as she was imagined.

I understand what you say, of course, and appreciate your efforts on making your point clear.

Is this such an issue? I never read anybody complain that Link has pink hair in a Link to the Past or that the sprite is drawn in SD style instead of being tall and stylized. He also looks 5 years old ingame.

Maybe this is not an issue for me because I'm quite used to full-fledged, intrincately designed characters in game covers and then a 16x16, monocrome schematic sprite ingame, which was quite common for 8 bit games for European computers I grew up to

By the way, the game is almost finished and in heavy beta testing.

I don't think it's a problem. I actually kind of like quirks like that where the styles clash (this is NES, after all).

This looks like a very cool game !

The new sprite looks a lot better! Like it.

The pink hair is indeed a strange issue. And a total exception, by the way. This was never done again with any "Zelda" game, as far as I remember.

Also, I'm not talking about the graphics style. I'm talking about actual properties of the character.

Yes, I'm aware that artwork and sprite style often clashes. Like with "Layla":


But the difference is: You still see that this is Layla. She has the bangs, the leotard and her backpack.

Same with Link: He might be drawn in a cuter style than in the artworks, but you still see that it's Link.

"Pokémon" does the same, showing Ash/Red in his original artwork first and transforming him into the small sprite. But the basic properties are still there.

Your character on the other hand could just as well be a completely different person:
The clothes don't match. They don't even come close.
The sprite has no feminine proportions, despite the fact that you went out of your way to design the artwork as fanservice.

There's just a total disharmony between artwork and sprite. That sprite, that's not the sexy witch from the artwork. That's a possible companion of Little Nemo.

Please understand that I'm not saying that the sprite is bad in itself. If this was supposed to be Lala's little sister, I wouldn't have said anything.
I'm just saying that it doesn't live up to what the artwork implies.

Simple character design is not really an excuse. You know what game also has simple character design? "Donkey Kong". And yet, if you have a look at the original artworks and then at the sprites, you have no problems accepting that the Pauline sprite is actually a legitimate representation of her drawing.

So, this is not about different graphics styles or about different levels of detail. This is about the game showing a blue robot with an arm cannon while the artwork shows some guy in a yellow-blue suit with a gun in his hand. Only that in your case it's the other way around (i.e. the artwork is better than the sprite) and your yellow-blue suit is a baby's romper suit.

In the end, it's your decision after all, though. I just wanted to voice my concerns.

At least Lala doesn't look this different:

Source

Wow, Layla is cute ! So far I just played the game but didn't see any artwork.

DRW: "And?" meaning it's a non starter for an issue. It's just an issue with you. This is the NES. This type of stuff is the norm, if you haven't noticed. I'm willing to bet your pet peeve is in the vast minority. Style/substance.. it's all subjective. I see no problem with it. Fits the era of the console. Moving on..

I was going to ask for the source, but then I saw that you guys are the original crew who did the game (I was thinking of a port to another system).

I knd of agree it seems disparate, after Yun having a very close agreement between the small sprite and large (even if not in proportion/palette, which, yes, is fine/due to system limits)


Of expressed opinions,
Difference matters: banshaku, tepples, DRW, Myask, [Alp, inferred by showing a fix]
"Game looks good" dougeff, Bregalad
The difference is's fine: tomaitheous, the_fox

It's disingenuous to call about half the commenters in the thread a "vast minority", or to call it "your pet peeve"…especially when DRW wasn't even the one to bring it up first.

But yes, generally the game looks good, and this issue's not going to make it a bad game for me by any stretch of the imagination.

Myask: I wasn't referring to the opinions of this forum. I was referring to retro gamers that enjoy 8bit era NES stuffs.

Alright, please name me a few NES games that have this kind of discrepancy.

Man its just an NES game made for fun for a competition.

Personally I am of the belief it is up to the individual to decide of their own free will what they wish to do (keeping in mind the consequences of their actions). In this case I believe the art is acceptable for my standards and the standards of the majority of the market (the community).

Na_th_an: Your game looks fantastic keep up the great work man. A 1000x better than anything I could ever produce artistically

And my words are just some posts in a forum. Everybody is free to ignore them. It's not like I continued posting without people answering my posts. I never spammed this thread. After my original post, I only answered statements that were directed towards me, didn't I?


Sure. I mean, I didn't force anybody to do anything. Furthermore, I didn't continue the conversation until somebody explicitly spoke to me. So, what exactly is your problem with my posts again?

If you don't like my opinion, don't quote me and I won't continue writing in this thread. It's as easy as that.

No, it's not as easy as that. That's stupid. "If you stop arguing with me, I'll stop arguing with you."

If you say something that bothers someone, they shouldn't leave it unchallenged. They should respond. It's like you're threatening to make a mess if anyone doesn't let you just say whatever you want.

Sure, that's all good and well. What I meant was: They shouldn't respond if they have a problem with me responding.

As far as I can see, Light-Dark doesn't just have a problem with my opinion. He has a problem that I state my opinion.

The following is not a problem for me:
Person 1: "I think that A is true because of B."
Person 2: "That's stupid. A is clearly false because of C."
Person 1: "C is nonsense. Have you ever considered D?"
Person 2: "Sure, but D is disproven by E."

That's all good and well. Both sides embrace the discussion.

It only becomes a problem when one of these persons says:
"Dammit, stop it already. This topic is a nitpicky issue anyway."

Somebody can argue with me all day, I have no problem with that. People can disagree with me and state their opinion as much as they want. It only becomes a problem when they complain about the act of discussion itself.

There's a difference between "I think you're wrong and here is why" and "I think you're wrong and you should stop stating your opinion since this discussion gets on my nerves."

The first of these two is what you described: Someone disagrees and so he feels the urge to tell me.

The second thing is what I desribed: After my initial post, I don't write anything unless someone reponds to it. As long as someone responds to it, I will answer if I feel like it.
If he doesn't just have a problem with my opinion, but with the very fact of me writing an answer at all, then he needs to stop discussing.

People need to decide:
Do they want to argue with me (i.e. do they have a problem with my opinion)? Then they should accept that I argue back.
Or don't they want this argument to go on (i.e. do they have a problem with the very concept of a discussion)? Then maybe they shouldn't argue themselves.

You cannot post an argument and then demand that the discussion is stopped and that your argument is the last word.

You see the difference?

I do see the distinction you're trying to make. Here's a distinction I'd like to make:

If I you were to suggest something about a game, and instead of engaging you in an argument about whether that suggestion is true or not, I said instead:

"You're making suggestions rudely, and it's making this conversation unpleasant."

Such a statement is still relevant to the thread and discussion, even though it's not the argument you wanted to have. Maybe the conversation isn't about who had the last word, but whether those involved are enjoying it or getting anything useful out of it? In this view, saying "I'll shut up if you will" is probably not an appropriate response.

If you seriously considered to tell me this, I would ask you to provide examples where I have been rude regarding my suggestions.

Furthermore, I would point out the fact that I haven't written in this thread for a bunch of days now. I only continued the discussion because someone explicitly talked to me and argued against my statements. So, why am I to blame? Am I not allowed to defend myself? The guy who quoted me made sure that the discussion goes on. If he hadn't referred to my statements, I wouldn't have written anything anymore.

You cannot have both:

Either you don't like my opinion and want to argue with me because you want to tell me I'm wrong.
But in this case don't complain that I argue back. In this case, you wanted the argument.

Or you don't like the unpleasantness of my person or my arguments, independent from the actual fact-wise opinions that I state.
In this case, you might have noticed that I don't continue my arguments without external input. So, you just don't need to do anything and you won't hear of me again.

But no, many people want to do both: They want to silence the discussion because it gets unpleasant. But before they do, they still want to have the last word, one last satisfaction, by telling me off and by writing a detailed answer why my arguments are invalid:

"Your opinion is nitpicky. The different graphic styles are no problem because A and B. Your arguments are nonsense. And now don't answer anymore, it gets unpleasant."

It doesn't work that way.

And if you answer this post, there's no-one to blame but yourself that the discussion goes on. I don't have a problem with that. But you, who don't want to discuss, can end it any time by not responding. It's your decision. If you still feel the need to tell me what an asshole I am, despite my offer not to write anything anymore if nobody responds to my statements, well, then you're just as argumentative as me.

Well, I am seriously telling you that, if you couldn't tell.

You could ask for examples but I'm not going to waste my time arguing about whether you've been rude or not. Maybe somebody else would oblige, but I don't think it's worth it.

q.e.d.

For the record I have no problem with others stating their opinion. I do apologize if I wasn't completely clear in my initial post regarding DRW. What I meant to say earlier (except more politely) was DRW's endless fighting over this small detail is really petty and to be completely honest this is a rather bizarre hill DRW has picked to die on. I still stand by the second part of my post with respect to Na_th_an; rock on man this game looks great so far !

Are you fucking kidding me?

Let's review this:

After explaining what I was talking about regarding the sprite style, I ended my statement with the following words:

That was August the 2nd.

Seven(!) days later, tomaitheous wrote a post specifically directed towards me.
The topic was over, yet he still had to pull it up again. It wasn't just some generic post about the topic. He talked to me directly and in a condescending way:

He did this despite me not being the only one complaining about the style and despite me not even starting the topic. And despite me not writing anything anymore, after my final review. And this was seven days ago.

I would have never bothered to write anything about this anymore if it wasn't for his post that, I repeat, was directed specifically towards me.

So, he wrote to me directly. Should I just have ignored him?

But despite that, guess what: I didn't even fucking mention any of his arguments. Yeah. Did you notice it? I didn't say anything about the sprite style of "Lala the Magical". I bet this went totally over your head, right? I never talked about the sprite discrepancy in this game.

All I did was asking:


Nothing more. He said it's the norm with NES games, which I don't think is the case. And I asked for some examples.

And then you came with:talking to me as if I had just thrown a tantrum, even though I just asked for examples of games where a fanservice girl is shown in a completely non-fanservice, non-feminine way as the sprite.

So, I still haven't said anything else about the sprite style of that game, but you felt the need to call me out on it, man.

I didn't do anything but react to posts that were directed towards me. And guess what: All posts that came after my statementdidn't even argue about the graphics style anymore. I didn't write a single statement about this game's sprite anymore. All the recent post were just general talk that had nothing to do with "Lala the Magical".

And yet, somehow I'm the asshole who is "endless fighting over this small detail", despite me not mentioning "this small detail" at all in the past week and despite me only writing again after being directly spoken to by someone else.

Where do you see me mentioning anything about this game's sprite in the posts after my final review?

Again: Are you fucking kidding me? Did you even read what I wrote?
Do you even understand that I would have never written any further argument in this thread (and that I didn't start any other argument about the sprites in "Lala the Magical")?
Do you get that I only wrote one thing: An answer to a post that was directed specifically towards me, including nothing but a general question about commercial games from the 80s and 90s?

Am I not allowed to do this anymore? Am I not allowed to answer stuff that people tell me?

Dammit, you guys cannot be pleased with anything, can you?
I write a factual review and I'm called rude.
I write, well, nothing in particular, just a general question, and two to three people jump in to write posts that contain nothing but the statement that I'm the guy who just cannot stop fighting.
Do you actually realize the irony in this?

P.S.: This one is a rude post with a lot of fighting, not the other ones where I just analyzed some graphics stuff. Learn the difference.

Alright, I'm out of here. That's my last post in this thread. Otherwise, when the next two or three people come and write what a rude asshole I am and I answered them, I would be the one who cannot stop fighting anyway, so I'll just leave it at that.

Na_th_an is making the game, not tomaitheous.

Shieeeet I totally confused the two my mistake, sorry na_th_an. Shouldn't post during my 5 minute work breaks. Ill fix it.

Sorry for the absence, but I'm on hollidays.

Thanks for the kind comments. I think a bit of discussion is healthy. While I don't share DRW's concerns, his critiques have made me redraw the spriteset and I think the new one is better, so I'm quite thankful.

Personally, I don't care that the character looks different, but I understand people who do.

There's an explanation, anyways: I created the character quite a long time ago in comics. When I started coding videogames for retro systems, I designed a 16x16 sprite in 2 colours plus transparent for the character for a ZX Spectrum game. Monochrome and 16x16, and fit to be displayed using RF in cheap TVs, I had to go VERY schematic.

When designing this game for the NES, I created the sprite as a coloured version of the original. Being so used to the original one, It didn't feel "unnatural" that the sprite and the full fledged character design didn't match.

Anyways, I hope you enjoy the game when it's finished.

Thanks everybody again for the comments, critiques, and general concern

Hello. A 64K+16K GNROM version of the game is out. The game is in the process of being converted to UNROM for the compo so it is elligible for the multicart.

You can give it a go and even peek at the sources. Downloads at the end of the game card here.

UNROM version submitted.

blurb.txt

Unless I misunderstood something (which is totally possible), I thought that the ROM for category 1 had to use mapper 28 with a fixed 8K CHR bank ?

Mapper 28 compatible, that is. NROM, CNROM, AOROM, BNROM, UNROM up to 64K according to the rules.

I'm curious what is the "swing wand" action for? Isn't the platform the only useful thing the wand does? How come the platform was hidden away in a button combination instead of just on B?

I was really confused by how the platform ability worked until I went back and read the instructions. (You don't have the wand for so long, I'd forgotten the instructions by that point.) Naively attempting to use it via the B button, it felt like it was unreliable. I couldn't understand why it worked sometimes and sometimes not.

Swinging the wand is useful in the last level. You need to do it a lot to scare ghosts away so you have the time to move and time your platform creation.

To create platforms you can use B+A or B+DOWN. I find it easier to use B+A as I'm usually jumping and pressing A. Some prefer DOWN+B. I couldn't be decided so I added both.

It is mentioned in the cutscene, I seem to remember, but I may be wrong.

Ah, yes playing again I do see it mentioned in the cutscene. I think I must have accidentally pressed the button too fast or missed reading it somehow.

Before I forget: that one camping enemy, in the first level, that placement is evil. You can't avoid getting hit, the enemy hits you immediately when you jump up to that screen.

I know which one you mean. You can avoid it if you know it will be there in advance, but that seems unfair. I will move it. Thanks.

Noticed this interesting coincidence. From, what I assume, a much earlier version of the same game design.






And also, the other Lala games on the same multicart.

It's an earlier version of Lala's map (which I still had laying somewhere, I never throw anything) with a different tileset we used to quickly build the joke game. There's a lot of reused / revamped / rescued from ditched material stuff in the multicart.

The original map was quite horrible, with lots of spots where rooms were connected very awkwardly. That's why I redid many sections for Lala. When my pal told me about doing a joke game about Sonic I just threw in the old version of the map.

---

Anyways, experiments aside, here's Lala with the debugging code removed.