Is it legal? - NESdev BBS

by WedNESday on 2006-12-28 (#20686)

In a discussion about cleaning an NES internally, tepples wrote:
Disadvantage is that you're likely breaking the law by operating unshielded RF equipment in the TV bands.

Are you nuts? We write NES emulators! How much more illegal can this all be? What about all of the million's of ROM's that we have downloaded!!!

by blargg on 2006-12-28 (#20687)

It is not illegal to write an emulator, and it's debatable whether distribution is illegal. The patents on the NES technologies have expired, and an emulator doesn't contain any copyrighted code as the NES has no internal ROM (CIC excepted). There are hundreds of legally-distributable NES programs in the iNES format that can be run on a NES emulator.

On the other hand, operating something without proper RF shielding can cause actual problems for other people, like interference with watching the daily mind-numbing content on television. Think of the couch potatoes!

by WedNESday on 2006-12-28 (#20692)

Actually, it's illegal to write an emulator if the purpose is to play illegal ROMs. Now that makes 100% - 1 of all emulators in the world. I doubt very much that theres an emulator out there that contains a disclaimer which says 'no illegal ROM's to be used with this emulator!'.

by gannon on 2006-12-28 (#20693)

That's like saying VCRs are illegal because people use them to illegally copy movies/shows

by WedNESday on 2006-12-28 (#20695)

gannon wrote:
That's like saying VCRs are illegal because people use them to illegally copy movies/shows

Yes, but the VCR manufacturers dont distribute them with the intention of them being used for such purposes. Take an umbrella, is it an offensive weapon? No. Modify it somehow (say sharpen the end), or carry one around with the intent to assualt, and it becomes one.

by hap on 2006-12-28 (#20697)

Your umbrella analogy doesn't fit in, but I agree with your first remark. Most emulators are playthings, intended to run "ROMs" downloaded from the internet.

by tepples on 2006-12-28 (#20702)

Split.

blargg wrote:
There are hundreds of legally-distributable NES programs in the iNES format that can be run on a NES emulator.

But too many files whose names contain "(PD)" and ".nes" will not run in any environment that passes even your basic tests. Someone needs to go through the GoodNES (PD) set and test everything against Nintendulator, Nestopia, and (if feasible) an NES devcart, and then report the results in a page on Quietust's wiki. I'd be willing to attack parts of this if someone can point me to a GoodNES (PD) set.

hap wrote:
Most emulators are playthings, intended to run "ROMs" downloaded from the internet.

Any emulator that includes a debugger, such as Nintendulator or FCEUXD, is explicitly intended for the testing of homebrew software under development. I would guess that "most" emulators (by number of projects) are hobby projects, but most actual users use one of a small number of emulators that were among the best of breed at time of installation (yes, at one point this did include Nesticle).

by tokumaru on 2006-12-29 (#20709)

But then why does every (current) emulator author struggle to get all games to run 100%? One might say that it's to make it as accurate as possible, since then it will be compatible with a very big library of software.

Even then, the author is required to download hundreds of ROMs he doesn't own.

I know we have to worry about the legality of what we do here so that we don't get in trouble from the simple hobby we all have here. But I have to admit that these discussions on legality can get quite ridiculous sometimes.

If you don't want to get in trouble, better not talk about it at all. We all have done illegal things (related to emulation, at least) a few times, and will keep doing it, as this hobby of ours is in a sort of gray area. We of course mean no harm to Nintendo, and all we do is because we love their old system.

Maybe this is a cultural thing, since many of you guys live in the US, the land where people sue the owner of a house for having tripped on a crack in their sidewalk, and you may fear that one day Nintendo decides to notice all of us.

I think that trying to justify what we do as hard as some people do is a bit silly. We must admit (at least for our selves) that what we do might disagree with what the law says is right, but we're talking about a 20-year old console here, we aren't hurting anyone or making anyone loose money. The law should be worried about people that kill people, not this crap. In the end, I feel that the laws over this are silly.

The internet was a major revolution on this world, and people better start getting used to it. It's not only emulation, people don't want to wait months before seeing new episodes of their favorite series, so they download the eps end give no ratings to the local network. Noone likes censored episodes either. People also don't like to wait for movies. People don't like to buy crappy games, so many download "testdrives" and if the game is not worth the money, they don't buy it.

People better start thinking of new ways to do things, stop releasing products of sub-optimal quality (crappy Sonic 1 port for GBA, for example!), simultaneous releases of series and movies, if they don't want to lose money because of the internet. It's not like we live in a world where most people are rich, so most have to pick where to spend the money. It's no wonder that if one can pick a cheaper alternative, they will, unless the original offers some clear advantages, as should always be the case.

Well, enough ranting. It just gets on my nerves when some keep insisting on justify what is done, in the weird way it's done here.

by WedNESday on 2006-12-29 (#20710)

*Gives a standing ovation*

Can I end the speculation by just saying this, if an emulator is made to play illegal ROMs, then it is illegal. Full stop.

tokumaru wrote:
Maybe this is a cultural thing, since many of you guys live in the US, the land where people sue the owner of a house for having tripped on a crack in their sidewalk...

You must be thinking of the UK...

by gannon on 2006-12-29 (#20714)

WedNESday wrote:
You must be thinking of the UK...

Pretty sure I read/saw this in the US a few (maybe a lot of) years back. Point stands that many US lawsuits are frivolous,

by WedNESday on 2006-12-29 (#20717)

gannon wrote:
WedNESday wrote:
You must be thinking of the UK...

Pretty sure I read/saw this in the US a few (maybe a lot of) years back. Point stands that many US lawsuits are frivolous,

What I meant was, the UK is fast becoming a culture obssesed with compensation for trivial things.

by Zepper on 2006-12-29 (#20721)

WedNESday wrote:
Can I end the speculation by just saying this, if an emulator is made to play illegal ROMs, then it is illegal. Full stop.

Full what? o.O
Don't make a monkey of me.

Well, actually, what you call "emulator" is a PC program that runs NES2A03 (6502) software. It's NOT printed anywhere that's target for ROM downloading & gameplay, but exactly the oppositive way. As blargg said, NES patents are gone and we do not use "illegal" development kits. So, even Realityman and his N64 emulator were hot topic someday... and now... is he in a jail?

Plus, the Nintendo itself is softing the blow. Just notice the ability of Wii of playing old games legally, or even the brand new Playstation3 / PSP able to play the old PSOne titles, come on!

by Bregalad on 2007-01-04 (#20901)

Saying emulation is illegal is just like saying that photocopiers are illegal.
You can make as many copies of a book or just a part of a book you want for free, but you'll lose it's initial case. And since the photocopiers were invented the book indutry got used to it and don't have harm. It would be the same for the game industry, they just must be used that people could download games and get used to it. You cannot put everyone that uses photocopiers as criminal (and in a lot of cases it is to photocopy copyrighted content), and so you cannot put all people that play emulated games as criminals.
Quote:
The law should be worried about people that kill people, not this crap.

That is the argument that most drug people used to use in the 70's (and still uses today), however, I still found drug is a major problem.

by WedNESday on 2007-01-04 (#20907)

Quote:
The law should be worried about people that kill people, not this crap.

I couldn't agree more.

Here is my source. Read up on the emulators section.

http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp

by Bregalad on 2007-01-04 (#20908)

I wasn't saying I disagree, just that killing is not the only crime the stupid humanity does (altrough it's one of the worst).

by tokumaru on 2007-01-04 (#20909)

Bregalad wrote:
Saying emulation is illegal is just like saying that photocopiers are illegal.

Here in Brazil you are not allowed to copy more than a certain number of pages from a book at a regular copy place. Some people photocopy whole books at work, though. And of course, if you own a photocopier you can copy whatever you want, just as you can easily copy a CD or a DVD these days, if you own the burner. I believe this is all considered illegal. No one wants you to rent movies and copy them (they expect you to buy movies later), but many people do it.

Quote:
Quote:
The law should be worried about people that kill people, not this crap.

That is the argument that most drug people used to use in the 70's (and still uses today), however, I still found drug is a major problem.

It is, specially here in Brazil, because of drug traffic. Many people die because of that, so in the end it's still people killing people over drugs. I'm really not concerned about drug users. I believe that the only wrong thing to do in this world is hurt others. If one is stupid enough to use drugs, well, let them be stupid, as long as that doesn't hurt anyone else. That is my opinion of course, and I'm sure many disagree! =)

It just pisses me off to see the police worring about unimportant things such as piracy (which only affects the pockets of huge companies) while so many people are dying. It's annoying to see the police picking on the small guys while there's much more serious stuff out there, real criminals to catch.

by Bregalad on 2007-01-04 (#20911)

Quote:
I believe that the only wrong thing to do in this world is hurt others. If one is stupid enough to use drugs, well, let them be stupid, as long as that doesn't hurt anyone else.

This is not basically wrong. The risk is that someone not so stupid could be stupidly influenced by stupid people for any purpose, and that really happen often. I'd say I agree if you also consider lying, stealing, injuring and so as "hurting".
Quote:
t's annoying to see the police picking on the small guys while there's much more serious stuff out there, real criminals to catch.

Actually that's what they does. I've never head of anyone arrested by the police or whathever for minor copying or hacking purpose. Only serious hackers get bothered, and those are real criminal because they can seriously alter commercial companies or banks. I really don't think video game market is the first bothering subject of the police, heh.

by tokumaru on 2007-01-04 (#20912)

Bregalad wrote:
The risk is that someone not so stupid could be stupidly influenced by stupid people for any purpose, and that really happen often.

I guess so... With so much information nowadays, I must admit I have a hard time understanding how one gets "influenced", but I guess it does happen and I wouldn't know how to get around that.

Quote:
I'd say I agree if you also consider lying, stealing, injuring and so as "hurting".

Yeah, I guess you can hurt others in non-physical ways.

Quote:
Actually that's what they does. I've never head of anyone arrested by the police or whathever for minor copying or hacking purpose. Only serious hackers get bothered, and those are real criminal because they can seriously alter commercial companies or banks. I really don't think video game market is the first bothering subject of the police, heh.

I also never heard of anyone busted at home for copying a DVD, but once in a while I see street vendors having their products apprehended (because they have no licence to sell, not because of pirate goods), the stand where the products were being displayed broken to pieces in the middle of the street, and if they didn't run I have no idea what would happen to them.

Now, these people are only trying to make a living. Those who sell things on the streets are usually humble people, and I fear that they'll resort to other worse types of money-making, such as robbing or dealing drugs, since they can't sell legal products because they don't have a license, and can't afford one.

That's what pisses me off. People are robbed in buses all the time, but the police is busting an honest street vendor, making sure that the government or big companies don't loose money, while the people that were robbed are robbed even more by the government... They really don't care about the people. Of course the people will also "steal" when they have the opportunity. Only that the government or companies are not punished for robbing us.

Is it just me or is this thread becoming a little... err... I can't even find a word! =) I don't mind it, though, as long as people discuss these things in a civilized way! =)

by gannon on 2007-01-04 (#20919)

Reading up on Nintendo's legal page is kinda funny.
Like how they say downloading roms is illegal, but making your own backups is ok, and later say that devices to make your own backups are illegal.

by WedNESday on 2007-01-04 (#20922)

gannon wrote:
Reading up on Nintendo's legal page is kinda funny.
Like how they say downloading roms is illegal, but making your own backups is ok, and later say that devices to make your own backups are illegal.

I think what they're saying is making backup copies is legal, but using those copying devices like the ones on ebay are illegal. The echo's what I said before.

by Quietust on 2007-01-04 (#20926)

Bregalad wrote:
I've never head of anyone arrested by the police or whathever for minor copying or hacking purpose.

Clearly, you haven't been paying attention to the RIAA's antics recently...