I am thinking that I would like to make a point-and-click adventre game, but I think I would need help with the art. Anyone want to help out?
So you wanna make the next Maniac Mansion. First write a design document with all you know about this adventure game, including every single piece of art needed for one character. Then you will understand the scope of the project and can try attracting artists.
Do you plan on porting an existing game, or do you want completely new graphics.
KHan is working on LSL and I've been doing the image conversions for him, which is time consuming, but doesn't require quite as much work than making completely new stuff (or art skills). Do you plan on having a cursor, or will you just walk up to things.
I'd love to see some of the early KQ games converted.
KHan is working on LSL and I've been doing the image conversions for him, which is time consuming, but doesn't require quite as much work than making completely new stuff (or art skills). Do you plan on having a cursor, or will you just walk up to things.
I'd love to see some of the early KQ games converted.
More like the next Uninvited 
I am just trying to get a feel for how receptive the community is to this type of collaboration.
Thanks for the advise Tepples. I will post again after I have the DD done.
I am just trying to get a feel for how receptive the community is to this type of collaboration.
Thanks for the advise Tepples. I will post again after I have the DD done.
I was thinking cursor-based without verbs. IE you just click on a door it will open, click on an open door to move through it.
A major focus of the design will be to streamline the interface and user experiance. I feel a big barrier to entry for players of the older games was the clunky interface, and the "guess the verb" puzzles that tend to emerge.
I'll have all this in the design doc.
A major focus of the design will be to streamline the interface and user experiance. I feel a big barrier to entry for players of the older games was the clunky interface, and the "guess the verb" puzzles that tend to emerge.
I'll have all this in the design doc.
I always wanted to make a point-and-click adventure for the NES... The only game of that kind I'm aware of is Manic Mansion, which can actually be seen as 2 games, considering how different the japanese version is, but in both games the graphics are very primitive, and I believe the NES can do better.
There's an interesting game for the GBC called The Fish Files, which looks a lot like Day Of The Tentacle. Obviously the NES can't produce such colorful backgrounds, but that's the kind of graphics I'd like to go for. A lot of CHR would be necessary. Sprites are also a concern... it would be hard to have more than 2 characters in the same room, unless some of them always stood on the same place, in which case they could be drawn with background tiles and have just small details animated.
There's an interesting game for the GBC called The Fish Files, which looks a lot like Day Of The Tentacle. Obviously the NES can't produce such colorful backgrounds, but that's the kind of graphics I'd like to go for. A lot of CHR would be necessary. Sprites are also a concern... it would be hard to have more than 2 characters in the same room, unless some of them always stood on the same place, in which case they could be drawn with background tiles and have just small details animated.
qbradq wrote:
I am just trying to get a feel for how receptive the community is to this type of collaboration.
A lot of people start big projects without any planning and quit early. I'm trying to help the community learn best practices, if only because I want more projects to get finished. From what I understand of a discussion on one of Fedora's mailing lists, Fedora doesn't include emulators precisely because not enough NES homebrew projects are finished.
qbradq wrote:
I was thinking cursor-based
The NES has no mouse without soldering. I can give you a copy of the cursor control code I use in Thwaite, which handles precise motions and large motions using subtle acceleration. Combine this with a slight bit of "auto-aim", or attraction toward clickable objects when the player lets go of the Control Pad, and it could be made workable.
qbradq wrote:
without verbs.
Occasionally, you might need verbs. By analogy to left- and right-click in a PC game, you could have the A Button do the primary action and the B Button pop up a list of actions if needed.
qbradq wrote:
I feel a big barrier to entry for players of the older games was the clunky interface, and the "guess the verb" puzzles that tend to emerge.
And as guess the verb declined, hunt the pixel initially increased.
tepples wrote:
qbradq wrote:
I was thinking cursor-based
The NES has no mouse without soldering.
That is true.
However, it would be neat to have an adapter that does one of the following:
1) Connects serial mouse to joypad2 port. Granted, there are a gazillion different serial mouse protocols out there. NES code to support a few shouldn't be too huge.
2) Connects a USB mouse (via small pic or similar) to joypad2 port. The processor would convert the mouse data into something "simpler" for the NES to consume, and allow the NES to poll the mouse instead of sending async events that the NES would most likely miss.
A prototype for #1 can be done with minimal parts (and yes, a little soldering, or at least twisting wires together).
I lack the skills to attempt #2. However, if someone were to use #1 long enough to develop a game for it, someone (kevtris, bunnyboy, qbradq, etc...) might take up the challenge of #2 with a goal of making them cheap enough to sell.
@tokumaru,
Check out the Uninvited TAS on YouTube to get an idea of what I am thinking about. Sprite animations are very sparse, and you cannot see your character on-screen. It's a point-and-click first person game. I think that style of game is much more doable on the NES, and I personally prefer them to the Scumm style games.
@tepples,
Dang man, you have some very good insights! I was planning on using a rubber-band cursor (helps with pixel hunting too). I would love to see your cursor control code.
@clueless,
I like the idea of using a cheap USB micro-controller to interface with a mouse and the controller port. Are there any other uses for this you can think of? It'd be strange to develop such a gizmo for a single project.
Check out the Uninvited TAS on YouTube to get an idea of what I am thinking about. Sprite animations are very sparse, and you cannot see your character on-screen. It's a point-and-click first person game. I think that style of game is much more doable on the NES, and I personally prefer them to the Scumm style games.
@tepples,
Dang man, you have some very good insights! I was planning on using a rubber-band cursor (helps with pixel hunting too). I would love to see your cursor control code.
@clueless,
I like the idea of using a cheap USB micro-controller to interface with a mouse and the controller port. Are there any other uses for this you can think of? It'd be strange to develop such a gizmo for a single project.
qbradq wrote:
I like the idea of using a cheap USB micro-controller to interface with a mouse and the controller port. Are there any other uses for this you can think of? It'd be strange to develop such a gizmo for a single project.
Several game types lend themselves to using a mouse interface instead of a joypad. I don't see designing (or even fabricating) a NES / PC Mouse adapter project having only one application.
(my opinion, made up right now and most likely flawed beyond repair): Joypads are more useful for games where the player in controlling ONE actor, moving the actor against the environment (Zelda, smb1, Metroid, etc...) Where user-input should result in direction action (move, jump, fire, etc...)
Mice are more useful when you need to interact with an environment directly, or have multiple actors. In both of those cases, moving the environment "cursor" or selecting an actor is cumbersome with a mouse. Examples would be an RTS game, or something like Simcity, Populous, Lemmings (those little bastards move too fast for a mouse though!), King's Quest and possibly turn-based games like Shingen the Ruler and Genghis Khan.
Some games can use either with the same effect. For example, Tepples' Thwaite.
I have some ideas on how to implement (UI, AI + actual game engine) an RTS for the NES. However, the prospect of using a joypad for it kinda sucks. A mouse would be much better.
I am not ready to begin such an endeavor though. I'm still trying to finish up my Yars' Revenge clone. However, if you guys would like to design a NES <-> PC Mouse interface, we can start a new thread, or fork this one off one post above this one. I don't want to hijack your original thread about graphics design.
I would not want to start on a mouse project until my dev cart is done. It is something to keepin mind though. I think if I do a little planning up front I could make the game support some future mouse interface standard.
I think the muse disussion is pretty relavent to my topic though.
I think the muse disussion is pretty relavent to my topic though.
qbradq wrote:
I think that style of game is much more doable on the NES
...and that takes half of the fun away!
I have much more fun thinking about things that are commonly considered "not suitable" for these old consoles!
tokumaru wrote:
qbradq wrote:
I think that style of game is much more doable on the NES
...and that takes half of the fun away!
I have much more fun thinking about things that are commonly considered "not suitable" for these old consoles!
Sometimes, it's not about pushing the limits as much as making something fun.
Drag wrote:
Sometimes, it's not about pushing the limits as much as making something fun.
Yeah, I get that. It's just that for me the fun part is making the games, not playing them. I absolutely need the making to be interesting and challenging, and pushing limits guarantees that.
Although I'm busy with my own projects, I think it would be totally awesome if you pursue this! I loved both Maniac Mansion, and the Uninvited (though I think shadowgate was better)! It would be great to this old style of game resurrected!
tokumaru wrote:
I always wanted to make a point-and-click adventure for the NES... The only game of that kind I'm aware of is Manic Mansion, which can actually be seen as 2 games, considering how different the japanese version is, but in both games the graphics are very primitive, and I believe the NES can do better.
I was thinking about this the other day and there are actually quite a few adventure games on the NES, in the general style of look at/pick up/use item on item, etc.
There's Shadowgate, Deja Vu, and Uninvited, the MacVenture series originally written for Macs and ported to NES.
There's Princess Tomato in the Salad Kingdom, which is similar to the MacVenture series in that it is first person and also not quite logical in its execution at times. I remember a lot of randomness, like you have to look under a specific table and find nothing there to spawn a guy at the other end of town you can talk to to proceed, things of that nature.
There's Maniac Mansion, which is probably the highest quality adventure game on the NES and the launch of the famous engine that gave us Monkey Island and others.
There's also King's Quest V, a port of the PC game by Roberta Williams. The KQ series is famous for being unforgiving, difficult and obtuse. It's another "walk around" game like Maniac Mansion. The graphics are really complicated and messy, in my opinion. They tried hard to port over the realistic graphics and didn't succeed very well.
Then there's Linus Spacehead's Cosmic Crusade by Codemasters. It's about a spacefaring boy who needs to prove he discovered the planet earth by returning there and getting photographic evidence. I played this on Genesis and enjoyed it a lot, but the NES version's music suffers. It's sort of a side scrolling adventure game, with all the item collecting and puzzles, mixed with platforming segments that have terrible physics. It's a neat game though, well worth looking at for adventure game inspiration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYTKHQd4Q_w
Tombs & Treasure by Infocom is another neat adventure game with some RPG and light combat elements. It has a few different viewpoints including first person and top down (RPG style).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82nhMaZytH8
Lastly there's Nightshade which is a really cool game marred by some goofy issues like awful combat. It's got a great art style and actually has a sense of humor, and all the classic adventure game elements are there, but it's tough. Still well worth checking out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x3LO8rRAks
Most other adventurey games on the NES are more RPG than anything else, but the above games have a solid focus on point and click. Maniac Mansion, KQV, Princess Tomato and the MacVenture games are the most pure, but the rest are interesting to look at.
Thanks for all the game suggestions UncleSporky! I never gave Princess Tomato a second look. I'll have to pick that up the next time I see a cart.
I forgot another possible example: Dizzy the Adventurer, by Codemasters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOHa1jIUkrE
(awful music in this recording)
It's got platforming elements but no combat and still retains the use-object-with-object gameplay of other adventure games. Lots of talking to people and examining things.
The Fantastic Adventures of Dizzy sort of has that adventure game stuff but it's much more of a standard platformer. If you were to include it in the genre you'd also have to include a Boy and his Blob, and that's getting a little out there. I think Dizzy the Adventurer qualifies though.
As a side note, I just discovered that the music from the final castle of Fantastic Adventures of Dizzy is from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
Dizzy
Monty Python
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOHa1jIUkrE
(awful music in this recording)
It's got platforming elements but no combat and still retains the use-object-with-object gameplay of other adventure games. Lots of talking to people and examining things.
The Fantastic Adventures of Dizzy sort of has that adventure game stuff but it's much more of a standard platformer. If you were to include it in the genre you'd also have to include a Boy and his Blob, and that's getting a little out there. I think Dizzy the Adventurer qualifies though.
As a side note, I just discovered that the music from the final castle of Fantastic Adventures of Dizzy is from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
Dizzy
Monty Python
Wow, Mr. Dizzy has some really nice grqphics! Thanks for the link.
I have been working on the desing doc and realized that a scripting engine would be perfect for this type of game. To my suprise I was able to implement a C-like script compliler in under two days I am working on the NES-side VM now as a feasability test.
There is one more detail to work out on the design doc before it is complete, but when it is ready I will post it.
I also took a crack at some test graphics and found out that I am not half bad
I have been working on the desing doc and realized that a scripting engine would be perfect for this type of game. To my suprise I was able to implement a C-like script compliler in under two days
I am working on the NES-side VM now as a feasability test.
There is one more detail to work out on the design doc before it is complete, but when it is ready I will post it.
I also took a crack at some test graphics and found out that I am not half bad
qbradq wrote:
I have been working on the desing doc and realized that a scripting engine would be perfect for this type of game. To my suprise I was able to implement a C-like script compliler in under two days I am working on the NES-side VM now as a feasability test.
I am working on the NES-side VM now as a feasability test.CC65 could also be used. I figure it should perform faster than a VM.
I had not thought of using CC65, but I like the idea of a non-Turing complete virtual machine. There are specific limitations that make the language and machine easier to implement, serialize and resume.
Performance is not a big concern for me. The engine itself will be implemented in assembly. Only event response will be handled by the script, and the execution can be made to extend over several frames.
Performance is not a big concern for me. The engine itself will be implemented in assembly. Only event response will be handled by the script, and the execution can be made to extend over several frames.
thefox wrote:
CC65 could also be used.
In other words, the Koei route. This was done at the expense of a lot of PRG RAM.
qbradq wrote:
I had not thought of using CC65, but I like the idea of a non-Turing complete virtual machine.
No implemented programming language is Turing complete because no computer has unbounded memory. At beast, computers are linear bounded automata. Did you mean "verifiably type-safe"?
Quote:
Performance is not a big concern for me. The engine itself will be implemented in assembly. Only event response will be handled by the script, and the execution can be made to extend over several frames.
The player presses a button, and it takes "several frames" for Mario to jump. Mario collects a coin, and it takes "several frames" for the coin to disappear and for the player's score to get credited. Mario hits a block, and it takes "several frames" for it to hop and start to sprout a mushroom.
Perhaps you just figured out why Micronics games run at 12 to 20 fps.
Mario don't jump in point and click games. You can use a lot of frames to handle an event.
Mario Is Missing (PC version)? No wait, that's Luigi, and all the characters' voices are [censored] up.
Mario & Wario (J)?
OK then, Missile Command. Point somewhere and click to go boom.
But I think I understand your point: "the kind of point and click games I'm talking about are completely turn-based". Sometimes when it looks like I'm deliberately misinterpreting a post, I'm just trying to rule things out so that further conversation can be more focused.
Mario & Wario (J)?
OK then, Missile Command. Point somewhere and click to go boom.
But I think I understand your point: "the kind of point and click games I'm talking about are completely turn-based". Sometimes when it looks like I'm deliberately misinterpreting a post, I'm just trying to rule things out so that further conversation can be more focused.
By non-Turing complete I did not mean "Not a Universal Turing Machine" As you point out that can be said of every machine. I meant that the machine is not able to represent a complete system. Branches may only go forward and calls may only go backward. This prevents recursion and looping, making the worst-case behavior of the software predictable at compile time. It also allows much simpler VM implementations.
It sounds rough when yoi read about such a machine. We as software developers rarely have occasion to "not implement a system" while we are coding. However in the case the script machine is not implementing a system. Its only role is to describe the rules by which objects interact.
Wow, this has been quit a discussion Thanks for all of your input!
It sounds rough when yoi read about such a machine. We as software developers rarely have occasion to "not implement a system" while we are coding. However in the case the script machine is not implementing a system. Its only role is to describe the rules by which objects interact.
Wow, this has been quit a discussion
Thanks for all of your input!