Download:
http://www.geocities.com/matrixz15/nn2_ntsc.zip
edit: optional link, pick your preference:
http://elazulspad.net/matrixz/nn2_ntsc.zip
This is a project ive been working on for about a
year, keeping sort of low-profile on it. Never knew
when i would finish it, and i didnt want to release it
before it was complete. Its based off NeSnake,
my entry in the 2004 minigame compo. I wanted to
improve the graphics on it, add music, thats how this
thing started. Then i added more and more, and it ended
up as what best Snake/Nibbles-like game i managed to
achieve with 32k of ROM space. (and 8k CHR)
Yep, its a full release, no demo. Its good to finnaly publish
it out, belive me.
On the game, there are 25 levels in all, and some useful items you
can get. There's a 2-player mode, for play against
a buddy or the AI coded into the game :)
There's a PAL version coming up, but it has some slight problems
i have to fix first. The PAL version was testen on hardware to work,
but there's no reason the NTSC version shouldnt.
I guess i'll just let the game speak.
Screens:
I wont be able to reply the next 4 days, since i'll be on a trip.
I haven't played all the levels yet, but it's really cool so far.
It's very cool and decent !
Congrats !
NeSnake is a great game! I am glad you have decided to further improve it. Snake in itself is a very simple gameplay concept, like Sokoban. I think a heavily themed version of Snake is a good idea, just as Lolo is a heavily themed version of Sokoban and Super Puzzle Fighter is a heavily themed verison of Tetris. The kernel gameplay is fun in and of itself, but improved graphics and audio and possibly a little story really make it better. So how about, will you release a third version of NeSnake that is as themed as Lolo is for Sokoban?
BTW, another great theme-ing of Sokoban is Mole Mania for the Super Gameboy. It is on par with Lolo's theme-ing. Sure it would be hard to fully theme Snake with a story, but if it can be done for Sokoban and Tetris, it should be possible for Snake.
Ok, I got some more play time. I am not used to playing worms with absolute controls and instead I am used to relative controls for turning. I was playing with the latest FCE Ultra under Linux. I absolutely love the music! The graphics are pretty good too, and I love how it has an in game instruction manual. I wish all games did that. I still haven't beaten easy. I assume that would unlock the next difficulty level. Does the game have a cinematic ending?
Some ideas for NeSnake 3:
1. level editor, with custom levels saved to SRAM
2. four score support for up to 4 player multiplayer
3. more variety in power ups
4. more variety and themeing in levels
5. A story for single player adventure mode, possibly with Pacman-like cut scenes for intermission between stages. It doesn't have to by anything special. Maybe you could just be a snake trying to save the princess snake, which was taken captive by a evil team of mongooses and hawks (which eat snakes in the wild). This would allow for more heavy themeing of the levels, powerups, and monsters.
6. Monsters that move around and can kill your snake if they touch the snake's head. This would allow for a strategy involving blocking the monsters with your snake's body.
In conclusion, everybody loved the original NeSnake. NeSnake 2 is definitely an improvement, and I would even go as far as to say that it is the best and most complete NES homebrew so far.
Its all good to hear
I've decided to go for a third game, and the development has slightly begun already.
I hope to get someone to do the music and maybe most of the graphics for any third version. I would welcome people to help with level design as well.
As for your ideas:
I planned a custom-level editor, that will definately be there. 4-players at the same time, i think that's impossible. (The NES has limits to how much graphics can be updated each frame, and 4-player would take too much of that). 4-player tournaments with 1v1 per round would work though. Im thinking of much more gameplay elements and power-ups (no ideas yet though). On levels.. for NN3 i will have alot of freedom of spending graphics on levels. I will also do mid-frame effects using the MMC3 mapper and its scanline IRQs. On Story, i never thought about that. It would have to be a engaging story with a purpose, not just something cheap for the sake of it. But i dont feel its the most important thing. Anyway, i like the idea about monsters and blocking them with the snake's body.
What about changing the versus rules for 2-player mode so that one player cannot block the other player from respawning?
I think that the snakes should advance slower, because controlling them can be pretty frustrating sometimes, even in easyer levels (when you want to turn just before a wall, but you click a bit too late and it scrateches).
Bregalad wrote:
I think that the snakes should advance slower, because controlling them can be pretty frustrating sometimes, even in easyer levels (when you want to turn just before a wall, but you click a bit too late and it scrateches).
I am not sure why I forgot to mention another feature request for NeSnake 3: the ability to select between relative and absolute controls.
Yeah, I get the feeling too. It seems to have more to do with the fact that you can't turn the milisecond before the snake advances into the wall. The reason you can't do that is because the snake can only turn on a grid with rows and columns the same width as the snake itself. Changing it so that the grid on which the snake aligns has rows and solumns 1 pixel wide would give a better feel, but it would increase the number of graphics tiles needed, right?
Another option would be to let the snake to interrupt partially entering the next grid unit. For example, say that the snake is advancing upwards and has partially entered the next row. If the player turns before the snake has fully entered the next row, then it snaps-back to turning into the previous row in which it has fully entered.
Just suggestions. I am not sure which would make the controls feel more intuitive, but the current controls do seem to take some getting used to, even for those that have lots of experience with other snake-like games.
Jagasian wrote:
What about changing the versus rules for 2-player mode so that one player cannot block the other player from respawning?
The reason i put that in is, if the 1st snake respawns above the other snake, it will continue "inside" that 2nd snake, or in many cases crash on part of the 2nd snake the second after the 1st one respawned. So its more fair delaying it until the path is clear.
Bregalad wrote:
I think that the snakes should advance slower, because controlling them can be pretty frustrating sometimes, even in easyer levels (when you want to turn just before a wall, but you click a bit too late and it scrateches).
I might consider changing the speed difficulties if enough people feel its too fast. I didnt have any beta-testers after all.
Jagasian wrote:
I am not sure why I forgot to mention another feature request for NeSnake 3: the ability to select between relative and absolute controls.
Yeah, relative controls was in NN2 since someone wanted it, but space issues had me remove the feature. It will be in NN3.
Jagasian wrote:
Another option would be to let the snake to interrupt partially entering the next grid unit. For example, say that the snake is advancing upwards and has partially entered the next row. If the player turns before the snake has fully entered the next row, then it snaps-back to turning into the previous row in which it has fully entered.
As it currently works, crash detection is done when the snake has fully entered the row below the row with the eventual wall (if direction is upwards). It never hit me, but youre right, ideally it should wait one more frame, at the moment its about to move 1 pixel into the wall. This is fixable without any horrible work-arounds or more graphics. Making it possible to change the direction after you partially entered a 8x8 box.. might make the game feel even better (and still be challenging). It would work, though with a deal of work-around.
Are you aware of how well that game would do in the arcades!?
Very proffesional looking! good music! good everything! addictive! nice job!
Hi,
First I would like to say this game looks absolutely fun!
Secondly, I find the text a little blurry and hard to read.. I think you could improve in this area.. I admit I am slightly medicated right now, but think it could be improved a tad for readability.. I also noticed something with the collision detection and I'm not sure if its been brought up before, but its something I view as incorrect.. If you double back, and the snake needs the rest of its body to be clear of its path, even if you clear it by "one" block, meaning the space NEXT to the head is occupied, but the space infront of it is EMPTY, there is still a collision; is this intended ? I can try and produce a VirtuaNES movie file or something like that if required
Also, I am the editor for
Old Skool Games, an electronically distributed gaming magazine that focuses on classic consoles, and I would love to do a piece on your game in one of our next issues..
I know a lot of homebrew folks might consider their titles to be works in progress with the ability for revisions down the road (much like PC games 'patch' stuff) but if you could get into contact with me and discuss providing me with a review copy that you feel best showcases the game to the player, then I'd love to hear from you, and perhaps ask you a few detailed questions about the devlopment process.
You can visit the contacts page of our site, or drop me a PM here with an e-mail address where I could reach you. Hope to hear from you soon!
Matrixz,
as was the first one, i love your game. the graphics look great. i would probably also say the music is good.... but this computer lacks speakers so i have not heard it yet
it sure was a surprise to see a new version, i have been working on a new version of my game also (my game still sucks) but i think its really great that the 2004 minigame nes entrys are still being worked on ^_^
also, if you would like i can create an FTP account on elazulspad.net for you so you dont have to use geocities. if you would like this send me a message with the prefered username+password
Zach wrote:
Hi,
I also noticed something with the collision detection and I'm not sure if its been brought up before, but its something I view as incorrect.. If you double back, and the snake needs the rest of its body to be clear of its path, even if you clear it by "one" block, meaning the space NEXT to the head is occupied, but the space infront of it is EMPTY, there is still a collision; is this intended ?
I think what you are describing is related to what Matrixz said earlier in reply to my comment. He mentions a simple fix, which hopefully he will consider including in NeSnake 2, as I can't wait until NeSnake 3
See his comment quoted below:
Matrixz wrote:
As it currently works, crash detection is done when the snake has fully entered the row below the row with the eventual wall (if direction is upwards). It never hit me, but youre right, ideally it should wait one more frame, at the moment its about to move 1 pixel into the wall. This is fixable without any horrible work-arounds or more graphics. Making it possible to change the direction after you partially entered a 8x8 box.. might make the game feel even better (and still be challenging). It would work, though with a deal of work-around.
Ah I must have missed that when I read it.. In any case, hope to hear from him soon
Ok, finnaly able to reply.
Zach wrote:
Secondly, I find the text a little blurry and hard to read.. I think you could improve in this area.. I admit I am slightly medicated right now, but think it could be improved a tad for readability..
Do you feel its just as blurry everywhere in the game? I know the Credits palette doesnt have much contrast. Or is it just the font in itself?
Zach wrote:
I also noticed something with the collision detection and I'm not sure if its been brought up before, but its something I view as incorrect.. If you double back, and the snake needs the rest of its body to be clear of its path, even if you clear it by "one" block, meaning the space NEXT to the head is occupied, but the space infront of it is EMPTY, there is still a collision; is this intended ? I can try and produce a VirtuaNES movie file or something like that if required
Im not completely sure what youre refering to.. unless its the collision detection issue like Jagasian suggested, and everyone's talking about.
Zach wrote:
Also, I am the editor for Old Skool Games, an electronically distributed gaming magazine that focuses on classic consoles, and I would love to do a piece on your game in one of our next issues..
I know a lot of homebrew folks might consider their titles to be works in progress with the ability for revisions down the road (much like PC games 'patch' stuff) but if you could get into contact with me and discuss providing me with a review copy that you feel best showcases the game to the player, then I'd love to hear from you, and perhaps ask you a few detailed questions about the devlopment process.
You can visit the contacts page of our site, or drop me a PM here with an e-mail address where I could reach you. Hope to hear from you soon!
Interesting, i'd be glad to :)
My mail, best way to reach me:
ingegjoestoel@hotmail.comYou want me to make a version of the game specially for reviewing, did i get you right?
WhoaMan wrote:
Matrixz,
as was the first one, i love your game. the graphics look great. i would probably also say the music is good.... but this computer lacks speakers so i have not heard it yet it sure was a surprise to see a new version, i have been working on a new version of my game also (my game still sucks) but i think its really great that the 2004 minigame nes entrys are still being worked on ^_^
Yeah, i had so many ideas i could not put in, and i still have more ideas i wanted in the
game. So im making a third version, no space limitations this time.
Looking forward to seeing what you can do with Hot Logic :)
WhoaMan wrote:
also, if you would like i can create an FTP account on elazulspad.net for you so you dont have to use geocities. if you would like this send me a message with the prefered username+password
Okay, much aprecciated. That would be great. :)
I've managed with Geocities, but everyone hates it anyway,
so i guess i better take the opportunity.
Anyway, there will definately be a bugfix version of NeSnake 2. There still seems to be some bugs that comes once in a hour, also im experimenting with the new collision detection.
Matrixz wrote:
Anyway, there will definately be a bugfix version of NeSnake 2. There still seems to be some bugs that comes once in a hour, also im experimenting with the new collision detection.
Are you testing it on a real NES? If not, make sure to get a few guys to test it out on a real NES. I don't have a ROM programmer, but hopefully I will get my hands on a CopyNES and Squeedo soon
I found the font somewhat hard to read too, probably due to the dimmer outline around every character (I can't really put my finger on why it's difficult). Probably not much you can do without reverting to the generic font used by most games. On some screens things are quite hard to read due to the font border being almost as bright as the central strokes (credits, also sub menus in green).
blargg wrote:
Probably not much you can do without reverting to the generic font used by most games.
I'd argue with that. There are plenty of 8x8 pixel fonts:
if anyone would like to see what i have been working on they can get it from here
http://www.elazulspad.net/eric/hotlogic.nes .... keep in mind that it is still a work in progress and it only has about 2 weeks worth of work put in to it
Jagasian wrote:
Are you testing it on a real NES? If not, make sure to get a few guys to test it out on a real NES. I don't have a ROM programmer, but hopefully I will get my hands on a CopyNES and Squeedo soon
Matrixz wrote:
The PAL version was testen on hardware to work,
but there's no reason the NTSC version shouldnt.
Answers your question?
Tested it on my PAL NES, btw.
Blargg wrote:
I found the font somewhat hard to read too, probably due to the dimmer outline around every character (I can't really put my finger on why it's difficult). Probably not much you can do without reverting to the generic font used by most games. On some screens things are quite hard to read due to the font border being almost as bright as the central strokes (credits, also sub menus in green).
The font was originally without borders, but it looked bad on the display
when testing on my NES. Adding border to the font helped on my NES, but.
I'll try to do another solution with the font palettes or the font itself.
Yeah, I found the font overall hard to read, especially when trying to read instructions and stuff.
I'll get into contact with you within the next few days via e-mail tho.
This game is very well put together. It could almost pass as a licensed release! I was wondering if you had any plans of sticking it on a cart w/ label to put up for sale? This would be great to toss in the console and jam on for awhile!
Uhh, I could read the font just fine, because I wasn't running it at like 30x20 resolution where the letters appear to be a pixel in size.
By the way, I like the hotlogic game! I can beat the first level, though.
Roth wrote:
This game is very well put together. It could almost pass as a licensed release! I was wondering if you had any plans of sticking it on a cart w/ label to put up for sale? This would be great to toss in the console and jam on for awhile!
That would requires :
- 1 factory made board, that's surely a lot expensive (not much any idea, but let's say arround $50)
- 2 PROMs (hum, well, let's go for $5)
- 1 capacity (not sure that's needed, but all NES games have one) ($0.01)
- 1 lockout chip defeater (this is possible to do it with several capacity, resistors and transistors to the security lines) ($0.15)
- 1 plastic packadge that fits in any NES (I'm really put this randomly, but let's say $20)
So the main cost is 50+5+0.01+0.15+20 = $75.16
If you want to take any benefit from it, you'll have to sell them $80. Plus you have to sell this, and this is another story. Who would buy a such game for the old nes $80 ??? Well, I say all the prize values more or less randomly, if someone could put others values with more knowledge behind that, that would be interessting.
Bregalad wrote:
That would requires :
- 1 factory made board, that's surely a lot expensive (not much any idea, but let's say arround $50)
In quantity they'd likely be cheaper, especially given that the circuit board doesn't fill the cart.
Quote:
- 1 plastic packadge that fits in any NES (I'm really put this randomly, but let's say $20)
Again, in quantity...
See also
nesreproductions.com.
Sure, in high quantity prod, if would be cheaper, but I don't know if a high quantity of people would buy that now, everyone does like stupid games with "realistic" graphics and terrible gamplay nowdays.
tepples wrote:
Interessting, however the man uses real nes cards, to remove the original game and burn another one (he don't say that to the custommer, but I think so). I'm pretty much able to do that myself, I've build my own FF2 card, and I also made a false-label for it, but on normal paper and I just glue it on the original Zelad card, and it looks just fine. I've ever written NES-FY-FRA on it like it would on a real card (I've burn a french translation).
However, I was surprised of how similar from emulation it was. The graphics are a little better, and playing trough the controller is a little more confortable, however it's not THAT different.
If I need a board that can be found only in the U.S. like EKROM, EWROM or something (for example to play Just Breed, wich I doesn't need scince I've played the whole game trough emulation exept the last few battles, and I've been very happy even in emulation), this would be interessting.
The biggest thing with making new carts are the cases and lockout chips. I believe I've got that covered.. I'm just recycling the old stuff, however. There's plenty of it.
Lockout defeaters aren't reliable enough IMHO. I'd like to see one that could be. Nintendo revised the NES to make things difficult. I believe some unlicensed companies eventually had to start including sheets with info on how to disable the lockout. Even using the original chips really sucks a big one, when it comes to exporting carts to another region. I've put some effort into RE'ing the CIC based on electron microscope images of it's ROM (thanks to neviksti). It's possible to create a replacement, but not easily. That won't stop me from trying.
Anyways, I've been making my own carts for a few months now, both to gain some practical experience and to raise funds for building Squeedo. I've posted very little about it here though.
Here's one I sold on ebay, a lot of pics there:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=8207551746
And the main thread about it (reg. requred):
http://www.nesworld.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=sell;action=display;num=1109963922;start=0
After I get stuff going sufficiently with Squeedo, I'll be looking into producing Garage Cart #2.
Memblers wrote:
Lockout defeaters aren't reliable enough IMHO. I'd like to see one that could be. Nintendo revised the NES to make things difficult. I believe some unlicensed companies eventually had to start including sheets with info on how to disable the lockout. Even using the original chips really sucks a big one, when it comes to exporting carts to another region. I've put some effort into RE'ing the CIC based on electron microscope images of it's ROM (thanks to neviksti). It's possible to create a replacement, but not easily. That won't stop me from trying.
LOL !
I have one lockout chip defeater at home (unlicenced famicom->NES adaptator from my brother in law) and it usually works fine (scince all cartidge doesn't always works, it's hard to say if it's the fault of the lockout chip or not). I don't know if it just converts a signal from a Famicom CIC to a PAL CIC or if it just disables the PAL CIC, trough (does the Famicom have a CIC in it ?).
I belive it just has several capacitor, resistors and transistors. I can try to see their value and where they're connected if you want, but it's for a PAL NES so no guarantee that will work on a USA system.
Quote:
Anyways, I've been making my own carts for a few months now, both to gain some practical experience and to raise funds for building Squeedo. I've posted very little about it here though.
Here's one I sold on ebay, a lot of pics there:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=8207551746
Lol ! Did you really destroy 24 cartidges like that ?? Or did you just send the board's shematic to a factory, to eventually disolver CIC from you games, that you don't need because you disabled the CIC of your system ? In that case, why is the think copyrighted by Nintendo ? What is NES-MHROM ? Does the M stand for Memblers ?
I hope for you that nobody will notice how plain is Hot Seat Harry before buying the card (or did you do a better revison ? The original one wasn't rally descent, as I remember (ooops... I hope you won't be scared...)).
Do you really think that people would be suceptible to buy that ? Personally, I would found this offer very suspicious if I didn't know what it is.
Well, lockout defeaters usually can work. But it want something that's 100%. If you have the wrong revision of NES, some types won't work. And there's no easy way for someone to tell before testing it. Also, the Famicom has no CIC.
The MHROM boards I used for the Garage Cart are from Mario/Duckhunt carts (not all of them are gloptops), I just removed the ROMs and modified it a bit to use CHR-RAM. Any carts I make like this later will probably have new PCBs though, because cleaning and preparing the old ones can be a pain.
Quote:
I hope for you that nobody will notice how plain is Hot Seat Harry before buying the card (or did you do a better revison ? The original one wasn't rally descent, as I remember (ooops... I hope you won't be scared...)).
Do you really think that people would be suceptible to buy that ? Personally, I would found this offer very suspicious if I didn't know what it is.
Heheh, yeah I don't think Hot Seat Harry is the main attraction. It's so small though, I had to put it in. The only thing I tried to change in it is adding intro music, but a couple bugs showed up too.
But people buy it for what it is. I've usually posted links to the games right along with it. And they're all sold out, I'm about to be shipping the last ones, except for a couple that I'm saving. Though actually it looks like I've only built more like 18 of them or so.
Do you have that much suscess ? I ask myself is the NES have so much success in the USA. I think, that here, in Switzerland, a lot of people knows what a NES is, but only few really happen to still like this system today.
I found it overall incredibly expensive $45, and if you made your own board and patent, I can't even imagine that.
If you really susccess while selling unlicensed games, you may become a "game publisher", heh.
Even the fact that the games may not be the greatest in the world, it's the fact that a new cart was released... no matter how few. Yeah, there's still a big market for NES games (see also: crazy prices on eBay). To be able to get a new cart for the NES after all these years is awesome! Even if they're refurbished PCBs, it's still new games inside
What Memblers did was put those games on a cart... then asked at a
single forum (I think?). Those are pretty well gone. If something like NeSnake 2 was put onto a cart, it'd be SO sweet. As I said earlier, it's such a solid game that I felt like I was playing something released from the early '90s! Very sweet game.
I get the impression that Membler's Garage Games Multicart was very successful. Collectors wanted it because it is a rare game, with a ROM that isn't available anywhere else, as there was some customization put into the menu and stuff. I think Memblers should consider getting PCBs printed, with his own custom logo etched on the board, and then periodically release a new Garage Games Multicart, which contains the best homebrew games (with author's approval of course).
A homebrew cart scene could really catch on for the NES. Look at how well it has worked out for the Atari 2600:
http://www.atariage.com/store/index.php?cPath=21_24
...they have tons of homebrew carts that use custom printed circuit boards, plastic cart shells, and labels! The 2600 is older and has worse graphics and sound than the NES. That is not the point. People who like the 2600 will buy the new games. Similarly for the NES. Though I think it is a good idea to add more customization and uniqueness to both the software and the hardware of the Garage Games carts, in the future. It will make them more collectable.
I think that a lockout defeater could work nicely. The best defeaters, such as the Camerica defeater, work for most of the original NES systems. The improvement that would have to be made would be to mod the Camerica defeater so that it doesn't damage systems that don't have a lockout chip like the top loader, by drawing too much current:
http://www.tripoint.org/kevtris/mappers ... erica.html
Percentage-wise, the number of systems for which the defeater could be made to work would be extremely high, as the new NES clones don't even have a lockout chip, most of the original NES systems have one that is defeatable, and the few that are undefeatable could simply be modded. Does anybody actually have a NES that is undefeatable without modding? How often do the NES refurbishing people on Ebay and such mod the lockout chip? Hopefully they do it for every NES for which they replace the pin-connector. If you open the NES, you might as well clip the lockout chip.
Well, it's cool that it has success. I hope you'll be able to found something about a "perfect" defeater. Didn't Tengen consult the US copiright office, or something ?
My lockout chip can be defeated fine. I think my defeater is simpler than camerica, I just opended the adaptator once. It had only 2 caps, one resistor and one transistor, if I remember right. Well, if someone has the skill and the equipement to make precise measure, that would be great.
i still think, judging from the patent descriptions, that we can make the lock talk to itself.... i think we have just tried it incorrectly. i think there is more to the timing than it being 4mhz and having it divided into 4 different signals. it has to have another multipier in there.
in the patent description it mentions that on one of the 4 signals it outputs the result and then inputs on the next. this would mean the data has to stay on the bus for the 2 cycles or that it is repeated on the input cycle. i think that we need to dump the input, output, reset, and clock signals at something like 80mhz or higher, using the reset and clock signals divide it up in to its 4 parts and analyze the hell out of it
I made a shematic from the lockout defeater I got in the HoneyBee FC2NES adaptator. It has a slot for a real CIC, so it was easy to reverse-engineer.
Here you are the scematic :
Images tend to go 404 rawther rapidly, so I'll make an ASCII art diagram.
NES lockout chip defeater by Honeybee, found in an unlicensed Famicom to NES adapter
ASCII diagram by Damian Yerrick
Code:
4700 pF
NES35 o------)|-----.
|
1K |
VCC o------/\/\/--+----.
|
5.1K |
(not E12) |
CHR10 o--+--/\/\/---+--|/
| | |\>--o GND
| 2000 pF |
`----||----+-------o CIC10
- VCC: +5V, NES pin 36
- NES35: NES pin 35
- CHR10: CHR A10, Famicom pin 53
- CIC10: CIC pin 10
- GND: NES pin 72, CIC pin 12
Apparently the CHR10 connection is supposed to do something similar to the line from the Camerica mapper that "fools the lockout chip into attempting to communicate."
Bregalad: What sizes of capacitors were used? And how reliable is this lockout defeat?
EDIT: updated with capacitance values.
Oops, I've forgettend the capacity values. The non-polarised cap in series with the 5.1kOhm resistor is 2nF (it's written 203 on it), and the polarised one next to the NES pin 35 is, I think, 4,7 nF (it's written 47-35 on it, normally there is only 3 digits, but I think the 5 stand for +/- 5% or something).
Yes, it's accurate, but sometimes the NES power light turns itself on and off (the TV syncrinisation also does turn on and off). I don't think if it's because of the lockout chip or because of the bad connections trough the adaptator. If it's because of the lockout chip, the reliability is 66%, else it's nearly 100%
How well does the Honeybee defeater work? Defeaters should be judged on a percentage-wise compatibility. As long as they work with an overwhelming majority of NES/Famicom consoles and clones, then it should be considered to be good enough.
Um, just FYI, cutting pin 4 on the lockout chip works, sometimes....
I had a lockout chip die on my NES (have no idea why), after cutting pin 4. It died after about 4 months after cutting the pin off.
Roth wrote:
What Memblers did was put those games on a cart... then asked at a single forum (I think?).
I also did mention it a couple times on the Digitalpress forums, and a couple people from there got one. I didn't get a lot of requests from there until they were all pretty much gone.
For the lockout stuff, short of using real chips, I guess the best thing to do would be to track down the last revision front-loaders and see if any lockout defeats even work on them at all. But I really doubt we'd be so lucky to find one that works on every NES 100% of the time. But we know Nintendo isn't making them anymore, so it's not a moving target at least, heheh.
It's my impression that Tengen got the actual 10NES program code from the patent office by misrepresenting themselves (they were still working with nintendo at the time, but hadn't had any access to the CIC code, and claimed that nintendo had given the OK or something to that effect).
Chip mask patents only last for 10 years. I don't know if the program code is filed in the patent office or the library of congress or what (you don't normally file any source code at all), but if someone can find out where I need to look, I'll be driving through washington at the end of the month and may try to check it out (although I plan on going through on sunday, I may change that).
Nevermind, I didn't remember correctly. Tengen alleged they were in a lawsuit with nintendo to the *copyright* office, not the patent office. That's not going to run out for a long, long time (or ever, if Disney, et al have their way with perpetual copyright)
Also, I think BU3213 in the FDS drive is also a CIC-style processor (same 4 bit jobbie, running a different program, just like the SNES CIC's were the same chip with a different ROM). It's likely a small micro, hooked up to a 4 MHz crystal, and the NES CIC numbering scheme goes from 3193 to 3197, so why not. (not that this information is in any way useful, or even true, since it's just a hunch)
Yep, that much we do know. I'd heard of the FDS's security chip, but never stopped to think it was this same CIC also.
The most useful thing to see now in the chip itself is the differences between the program for different regions. Could be useful, in the hopes that the program is pretty similar. As it is now, we don't really know how the memory rows/columns are decoded. So it's hard to even start trying to guess the instruction set.
The best thing would probably be to look at Tengen's chip. Supposedly it's core was done by Motorola, so it'll be something pretty different at least.
People have figured this stuff out before.. I know some Game Doctors and probably other SNES copiers had CIC clones in them.
Memblers wrote:
Yep, that much we do know. I'd heard of the FDS's security chip, but never stopped to think it was this same CIC also.
The most useful thing to see now in the chip itself is the differences between the program for different regions. Could be useful, in the hopes that the program is pretty similar. As it is now, we don't really know how the memory rows/columns are decoded. So it's hard to even start trying to guess the instruction set.
The best thing would probably be to look at Tengen's chip. Supposedly it's core was done by Motorola, so it'll be something pretty different at least.
People have figured this stuff out before.. I know some Game Doctors and probably other SNES copiers had CIC clones in them.
Was Nevistki's reading of the CIC ROM successful? I thought the CIC chip also contained a common embedded CPU for running the ROM code, like a PIC but different make/model. Why not just buy that chip and burn the CIC ROM image to it for homebrew carts?
The reading was successful (sort-of), but the CPU type is *not* known. Netviski read the bits out of the memory, but doesn't know for sure how they arrange into bytes, and in what order. If we knew the CPU type, we could try a number of likely orders until we got a program that seems reasonable and then transcode that to e.g. a PIC.
Anonymous wrote:
The reading was successful (sort-of), but the CPU type is *not* known. Netviski read the bits out of the memory, but doesn't know for sure how they arrange into bytes, and in what order. If we knew the CPU type, we could try a number of likely orders until we got a program that seems reasonable and then transcode that to e.g. a PIC.
Damn, well, is somebody still actively trying to figure out the remaining details? Maybe just a trip to the patent office to figure out what the instruction set is or the chip? If the CIC could be emulated with an ultra-cheapy PIC, that would open the door for homebrew carts made entirely out of new custom parts.
Jagasian wrote:
Damn, well, is somebody still actively trying to figure out the remaining details? Maybe just a trip to the patent office to figure out what the instruction set is or the chip? If the CIC could be emulated with an ultra-cheapy PIC, that would open the door for homebrew carts made entirely out of new custom parts.
Yeah, that would be really great. I ask myself what would be the difference between new CIC and old CIC like Memblers said. I personately didn't have any problem for both consoles I've on the hand.
Scince old games should be compatible with new consoles and new games should be compatible with old consoles, the new CIC can't be really much more different than the old one.
Would it be possible to manually clock a CIC and check all the outpouts of a CIC when it's in LOCK, then KEY, then try to make them to matches to unlock the "sequel" of the CIC comminication part, etc... in order to know wich value should each outpout take to each clock edge ? That wouldn't be more complicated to use a microscope or something.
Bregalad wrote:
Would it be possible to manually clock a CIC and check all the outpouts of a CIC when it's in LOCK, then KEY, then try to make them to matches to unlock the "sequel" of the CIC comminication part, etc... in order to know wich value should each outpout take to each clock edge ? That wouldn't be more complicated to use a microscope or something.
Yeah, it's been done. The data stream is mostly a lot of zeros, with some ones thrown in occasionally. A couple problems: there's several different sequences (unknown how one is agreed upon), and they're much too long to simply play back.
Memblers wrote:
Bregalad wrote:
Would it be possible to manually clock a CIC and check all the outpouts of a CIC when it's in LOCK, then KEY, then try to make them to matches to unlock the "sequel" of the CIC comminication part, etc... in order to know wich value should each outpout take to each clock edge ? That wouldn't be more complicated to use a microscope or something.
Yeah, it's been done. The data stream is mostly a lot of zeros, with some ones thrown in occasionally. A couple problems: there's several different sequences (unknown how one is agreed upon), and they're much too long to simply play back.
If they are mostly zeros, wouldn't it be easy to record and playback the sequences? Just record the number of zeros between ones.
Jagasian wrote:
If they are mostly zeros, wouldn't it be easy to record and playback the sequences? Just record the number of zeros between ones.
Sure, RLEing the sequences might work,
unless the sequences are several million steps long. Something based on a 32-bit LFSR might have a period of billions of units before it repeats.
The difference between the "old CIC" and the "new CIC" lies mostly in some input protection (diodes etc) to prevent the -5V trick from working.
tepples wrote:
Sure, RLEing the sequences might work, unless the sequences are several million steps long. Something based on a 32-bit LFSR might have a period of billions of units before it repeats.
Sure, it would be impossible to do this with a squence that's THAT long, but who tells you it were that long ? It may be short as well.
Because people have recorded hours of data (far too big to fit in anything affordable), and never seen the damn thing wrap around?
I just got a better idea. By producing NES adaptator similar to the SNES AD-29 adaptators, it would be easy to bypass the lockout. That would need to have one male 72-pin connector, that would connect inside the NES, connected itself to a flat cable going out of the NES itself. Then, the flat cable would about on another unit, with two 72-pin female connectors. The first slot would connect to VCC, GND and all other pins into the NES exept the security ones. The segond slot would connect only to the VCC and GND that the lockout chip needs, and also connect to the security lines. So the user just have to insert that device in his NES, to insert the homebrew cartidge in slot A, and to insert any of his licenced cartidges in slot B.
That would also work as a USA/Europe adaptater, scince you can insert a US game in slot A and a PAL game in slot B to run an american game on an european NES and vice versa.
Well, the problem is that would need to produce lots of them with pattents and stuff, before begining to actually sell homebrew games.
Bregalad wrote:
I just got a better idea. By producing NES adaptator similar to the SNES AD-29 adaptators, it would be easy to bypass the lockout. That would need to have one male 72-pin connector, that would connect inside the NES, connected itself to a flat cable going out of the NES itself. Then, the flat cable would about on another unit, with two 72-pin female connectors. The first slot would connect to VCC, GND and all other pins into the NES exept the security ones. The segond slot would connect only to the VCC and GND that the lockout chip needs, and also connect to the security lines. So the user just have to insert that device in his NES, to insert the homebrew cartidge in slot A, and to insert any of his licenced cartidges in slot B.
That would also work as a USA/Europe adaptater, scince you can insert a US game in slot A and a PAL game in slot B to run an american game on an european NES and vice versa.
Well, the problem is that would need to produce lots of them with pattents and stuff, before begining to actually sell homebrew games.
That is probably a better idea, as long as it could be cheaply produced. Then an organization like Membler's industry could sell the adapter as well as homebrew games. All of which are made from custom parts. If you want to play the games and you don't have a modded system, then of course, you will need to get yourself an adapter.
Better yet, why not just have the homebrew community standardize on the Famicom form factor and then make a T-connector that accepts a licensed NES cart and a Famicom cart?
What Bregalad describes sound kinda like what HES used.
http://www.consoledatabase.com/companies-organisations/hes/
OTOH, it is very tempting to just switch over to Famicom format. Only problem is that hardly anyone around here has a real Famicom, and all the clones kinda suck in various ways.
I'm trying to imagine what a T-connector would look like for the front-loader, and it isn't very pretty, heheh. Woah, here we go, linked to from that last page:
http://www.consoledatabase.com/accessories/nes/hesunidaptor/index.html
Looks pretty expensive to make.
Memblers wrote:
What Bregalad describes sound kinda like what HES used.
http://www.consoledatabase.com/companies-organisations/hes/OTOH, it is very tempting to just switch over to Famicom format. Only problem is that hardly anyone around here has a real Famicom, and all the clones kinda suck in various ways.
I'm trying to imagine what a T-connector would look like for the front-loader, and it isn't very pretty, heheh. Woah, here we go, linked to from that last page:
http://www.consoledatabase.com/accessories/nes/hesunidaptor/index.htmlLooks pretty expensive to make.
Yeah, it's just what I was thinking about, I've a similar adaptator on my SNES and I just say to myself what it wouldn't work fine on the NES. The thing is simpler on the SNES because Jap games and USA games have exactly the same pinout, but different pattent, so I can play PAL games as well than USA and Jap games on my SNES.
It would be pretty expensive, but less expensive than a homebrew cartidge scince no circuitery is needed, only pattent, flat cables and connectors.
Well, about the Famicom format, that wouldn't be stupid scince Famicom cartidges doesn't have any CIC, but someone with a toploader or a NES without lockout chip would need a FC2NES adaptator to have it working.
Better yet, design our own own format so people would be
forced to buy the adaptator. That would be totally crap and stupid, but those kind of methods are typically the ones that Nintedo uses a lot.
Memblers wrote:
I'm trying to imagine what a T-connector would look like for the front-loader, and it isn't very pretty, heheh. Woah, here we go, linked to from that last page:
http://www.consoledatabase.com/accessories/nes/hesunidaptor/index.htmlLooks pretty expensive to make.
I was imagining something more like the
Unidaptor MkII, except with a 60 pin connector (for PRG and CHR buses) on top and a 72 pin connector (for CIC passthrough) on the bottom.
This might sound totally nuts, but why not bring back the Aladdin Deck Enhancer? If it is too rare, then clones could be made of it using lockout chips from very common carts. This seems to make the most sense, as it factors out the lockout chip and mapper:
http://www.nesplayer.com/features/aladdin/aladdin.htm
The cost of individual homebrew manufacturering would be minimized as there isn't much plastic involved in the small shell, and the PCB is tiny and simplistic. There would be more upfront cost for the enhancer though because it needs a cart socket in addition to a custom plastic shell.
Aladdin Deck Enhancer looks like a FC to NES adapter except instead of passing through the CHR bus, it contains an 8 KB CHR RAM. Something like the Aladdin Deck Enhancer means we'd be limited to the functionality of UOROM (iNES #2), but as a start, that might not necessarily be a bad thing.
Here's a really oddball idea: make something like the Aladdin Deck Enhancer mixed with the GB Bridge. It would take NES ROMs stored on a readily available GBA flash cart and translate between NES PRG bus protocol (8-bit data bus and 16-bit address bus at 5V) and GBA cart bus protocol (24-bit address bus muxed with a 16-bit data bus at 3.3V). This translation would probably need a few latches and level converters, but I'm sure it could be done within the timing requirements of both the NES CPU and the GBA cart.
Yeah, the Aladdin was a cool idea. But it seems kinda dated today, from when ROM strictly meant read-only. I think a flashcart is a better continuation of what the Aladdin did best, which is lower reproduction costs for future games. In fact, using Flash lowers that to the cost of perhaps a CD-R at the least.
But then with a rewritable cartridge, how do you charge for more games?
Thank you very much for this release, Matrixz! I loved NeSnake 1
tepples wrote:
But then with a rewritable cartridge, how do you charge for more games?
Same way as any other commercial software, very confidently and with excellent presentation.
I guess the latter would be a little harder without a traditional cartridge, but still very doable.
I got my game to work with a system where hit-detection is done 1 pixel later than before. Non-technically speaking, the snakes now have slightly more time to turn before it crashes into something. I think the control feels better now. After a deal of work, i also fixed up and improved other things. So i release version 1.2, this is a final one, no more polishing. (1.1 is the DreamEmulation version)
Oh, and the PAL release also.
NTSC version:
http://geocities.com/matrixz15/nn2_ntsc.zip
PAL version:
http://geocities.com/matrixz15/nn2_pal.zip
I cant log into my elazulspad.net account right now, so there's geocities links temporarily.
Complete list of changes from the initial release:
Version 1.1
* Crash Detection and Direction Turn is aliged 1 pixel later, like ideally
* Vs. Draw Game doesnt say "Team Wins!" anymore
* Switch hit flash effect
* Screen no longer jumps at display enable (level start / switch draw)
* Animations doesnt pause when snake is restored / crashes
* Fixed problems if both players are waiting to be replaced in Vs. Mode
* ScoreAdd processes unpaused at "Get Ready" blink
* Improved font based on the old one
Version 1.2 final
* Revisited hit-detection (AI / Crash-detect)
* Score is reset at title screen (not hi-score)
* Fixed replace hit-detect wait procedure
* Fixed bugs when removing snake in replace state
* Improved random generator - produced static values in rare cases
* Fixed 2-Player BGM arrangement data
* No "hacky" effect when player is replaced in 2P mode
* Fixed status-bar palette bug from version 1.1
I know this is a bump, but it should be harmless.
oh... forgot we had to redo the userlist, email me a new username and password that you would like and i will re-create an account for you