Advertising commercial NES projects


by on (#41917)
[Split from here]

Commercial advertisements are not allowed on parodius.
Moderators should lock this thread and remove all commercial ads in it please, including the original video which was a commercial all along and tricked us into thinking it was NES-related.

by on (#41944)
Bregalad wrote:
Commercial advertisements are not allowed on parodius.
Moderators should lock this thread and remove all commercial ads in it please, including the original video which was a commercial all along and tricked us into thinking it was NES-related.


Then wouldn't this have to go? Not that I'm complaining or anything, since that's even more of a blatant advertisement than this thread.

by on (#41946)
Bregalad wrote:
Commercial advertisements are not allowed on parodius.
Moderators should lock this thread and remove all commercial ads in it please, including the original video which was a commercial all along and tricked us into thinking it was NES-related.


No offense....but it seems like you're just bugged out he wont distribute it freely.

by on (#41948)
Xkeeper wrote:
Bregalad wrote:
Commercial advertisements are not allowed on parodius.
Moderators should lock this thread and remove all commercial ads in it please, including the original video which was a commercial all along and tricked us into thinking it was NES-related.


Then wouldn't this have to go? Not that I'm complaining or anything, since that's even more of a blatant advertisement than this thread.


And even that is not an advertisement per se. It's an achievement post; look what he accomplished, that's pretty cool, he posted it because some people were interested in news on how his game was going. He didn't say "*NEW* FOR SALE BRAND NEW NES GAME NEVER BEFORE SEEN ONLY $29.99 MAKES GREAT GIFTS FOR THE WIFE AND KIDS. ORDER NOW AND GET IT AUTOGRAPHED!"

This thread is even less of that.

We can get really, really picky with the rules too, but I don't think anyone wants to go there. No pirated software? There goes all source code discussion. Somebody could compile the SMB disassembly and play it illegally.

Bregalad you are generally a cool and helpful dude and I don't want to make you mad at me, because there are not a lot of regulars here and you guys are all very smart. But I don't think we should be calling for someone's posts to be removed because they are showing off a game they're working on. :?

by on (#41949)
Xkeeper wrote:
Bregalad wrote:
Commercial advertisements are not allowed on parodius.

Then wouldn't this have to go?

As would any announcement that the PowerPak is back in stock.

by on (#41950)
tepples wrote:
Xkeeper wrote:
Bregalad wrote:
Commercial advertisements are not allowed on parodius.

Then wouldn't this have to go?

As would any announcement that the PowerPak is back in stock.


I'm not sure that would fall under it... especially when you consider that the PowerPak is a very useful tool for development on the NES, whereas a commercial game, uh, isn't.

by on (#41951)
Information about a new homebrew NES game should be okay because it's relevant to this site, being NESdev and all. Also, it's really helpful to know when PowerPak is in stock. We should be able to talk about/show off new games we're making, because we all came here to make games and have other people play them. Probably no one will know about them unless we show them off here. So I think we should all just calm down and eat some fruit or something*.

*Quote from Mel Gibson in Signs.

by on (#41953)
Anyway lets not stray too far from the toopic. Otherwise the thread wil get closed.

Anyway Siv I have some ideas for the game. But it looks great so far.

by on (#41954)
Everyone, please don't be asses. Sivak is nice enough to share wip of games he later sells, and no they are not advertisements for games for sale (only information about games that MIGHT be available in the future).

LN

by on (#41957)
It's true that it is kind of annoying to see it if you can't play it, but that's nothing new. How about Grand Theftendo, Neotoxin, maybe Time Conquest, if anyone remembers that one. Those, and certainly most NES homebrew projects have something in common - they never get finished and released properly. If releasing it on cart helps it get completed, then great.

When I took a reserve list for Garage Cart #1, I don't think I even mentioned it here. I knew noone here was making money doing NES development, so who'd have $35 to spend on that rather than any kind of dev tool? It turned out to be a really good deal for the original buyers, but that's besides the point.

Definitely it's not an ad, it's not for sale, it's not even done yet. It's certainly interesting though.

by on (#41960)
Er, wow. Okay, I'll just say a few things:

#1 - Yes, I do intend to put any and all games I make on real carts and actually sell them. This game is no exception. But in reality, I don't expect to make lots of money off this. Any little cash I can make is certainly nice.

#2 - This is hardly a commercial or ad. It just showed some stuff in the game. I want people to know what's being developed. There's a long way to go before the end of this.

#3 - I do very much hope to finish this. I don't have any reason not to.

#4 - The most important news: Progress continues! I'll be making a first boss battle soon.

by on (#41961)
Well, it's not because something is not yet in sale that this is not an ad. Anyway if you guys consider it isn't one, then fine.
Quote:
Then wouldn't this have to go? Not that I'm complaining or anything, since that's even more of a blatant advertisement than this thread.

For some reason I missed that one (maybe because of the thread's name), but if I read it back then I would probably have complained as well.

And yes it's really annoying to see people make money on what I take hours to do for free. And yes there is many unfinished projects but I can't complain as I haven't finished any of mines yet.

by on (#41964)
Bregalad wrote:
And yes it's really annoying to see people make money on what I take hours to do for free.

Nobody's forcing you to make games for free, you know.

(uh oh, my topic split senses are tingling)

by on (#41966)
Well, I have been wanting to code video game since I'm 10 so yeah. And since I code video games I'd like someone to play them (else what's the point) so I make them for free.

by on (#41970)
Ok so do......And let sivak do his own thing. You cant always have what you want.

by on (#41972)
I guess it's not my buisne$$$$$$$$

by on (#41974)
No it isnt.

[sarcasm]
COMMUNIST!!!!!
[/sarcasm]

by on (#41975)
Honnestly, since when are people paid to have fun ?
Most people on the earth works in order to earn money and spend that money to get food and have fun. I just don't like that this rule is broken, it just isn't right that some peopl should work to earn money while others can have fun to earn the same money, when they should spend their earned money to have fun instead. Is that communism ? If so I guess I am one of them (altough I never undersant what communism is despite the fact I was supposed to have learned that at scool).

Anyway, to anyone who reads that I am *not* going to buy any NE$ "homebrew" games no matter what anyone says. I am interested in NESdev not NE$dev

by on (#41977)
Some people just need a financial incentive to keep them from getting pulled to the Dark Side (Pocket PC homebrew).

by on (#41978)
Bregalad wrote:
Honnestly, since when are people paid to have fun ?
Most people on the earth works in order to earn money and spend that money to get food and have fun. I just don't like that this rule is broken, it just isn't right that some peopl should work to earn money while others can have fun to earn the same money, when they should spend their earned money to have fun instead. Is that communism ? If so I guess I am one of them (altough I never undersant what communism is despite the fact I was supposed to have learned that at scool).

Anyway, to anyone who reads that I am *not* going to buy any NE$ "homebrew" games no matter what anyone says. I am interested in NESdev not NE$dev


Isnt the idea of life that its unfair. Ya I know its unfair......but it is. Also note the sarcasm notes at the communist remark...how old are you btw...no offense I find it hard to imagine anyone over 18 to not know what communism is (no offense here)

by on (#41980)
Bregalad wrote:
Honnestly, since when are people paid to have fun ?
Most people on the earth works in order to earn money and spend that money to get food and have fun. I just don't like that this rule is broken, it just isn't right that some peopl should work to earn money while others can have fun to earn the same money, when they should spend their earned money to have fun instead.


Many of the people I know would fall into that category. Granted, they had to go through school to get there, but they seem to enjoy their work. Isn't that the difference between a job and a career, the enjoyment?

If not then I need to change my major to something less enjoyable. :)

edit: I know the topic is nesdev, but your comment seemed aimed at work in general. If not, then my mistake.

by on (#41981)
I aim to do what I enjoy to make a living. And well, not just a living, but like so I'll never have to work again. It's okay for me to have this goal, because like a lot of other people, I don't want to be condemned to do the same boring crap every day for the rest of my life until I die after living the average life span. Though once I achieve this goal, I will make movies, books, games, music, and lots more (so I'll do work, it will be mostly for my own benefit though). Then of course I'll buy myself a huge house with a roller coaster inside and lots of sound proof rooms :) .

And whether or not you're 18 has nothing to do with your understanding of communism. There are plenty of things I don't understand about life that are supposedly common sense that I apparently should understand by this point. Some things are just harder to understand than others. I myself don't fully understand communism.

by on (#41982)
Yes you are right, it's of course possible to have a job and enjoy it, but after all it's still a job. Coding NES games is not a job any longer since 1994. If anyone wants to make commercial games, I'm not standing against them, but they should definitely be making games that are actually commercialisable like PS3, XBox360, Wii, DS, or PC games (possibly GBA but I doubt). Not NES games, as much as I like these they are not commercial anymore and shoudn't be IMO.

I'm currently 19 and yes I know about communism I just don't understand exactly what it is. Of course I am supposed to have learned it at scool, but I almost only listened to math courses.

by on (#41983)
Ah I thought you had absolutly no understanding of communism. Anyway atariage has lots of people selling games. Just cause a game console is old doesnt mean you cant commericially program for it. Hell the dreamcast stil gets games.

by on (#41984)
You can but :
1) Very few people will actually buy it -> your chances to make a living are slim to none
2) Chances are that it will be considered rare and that people will sell it more expensive than the original price on ebay, something I would personally have if the game was mine
3) You are getting informations, help and progamming tools on the internet by people who shared that freely and you use that to make money, which I consider dishonnest. If anyone release a game chances are that people writing tile editors and assember, as well as people that answers to questions asqued on the internet, are as much responsible in the release than the coder.
4) If everyone had that mentaily, we would then have to buy emulator, romhacks, roms, etc... and in the end it would be detestable, I'd just play modern games that come out they have better graphics and would be almost less expensive at that rate
5) Where is the fun ? I love programming and such. After all a game is a work of art, and I personally think an artistic ideal should become before money.

Wanting to be a sersious money maker when coding a game for a completely obsolete machine just doesn't feel right. Especially

by on (#41987)
Number 3 actually brings up a valid point. I can see why someone would feel it's cheap/dishonest to use all this free stuff to make money. Those people who answered the questions that the programmer had play a big part in the production of that game. Though it may be small in comparison to what work the programmer did.

I sort of agree with number 4 and 5 too. But I'm not as passionately adamant about them.

by on (#41989)
Bregalad wrote:
If anyone wants to make commercial games, I'm not standing against them, but they should definitely be making games that are actually my mom

Please use American spelling of -ize words on this board. Otherwise, the censor thinks you're trying to talk about a medication sold by Lilly ICOS to treat erectile dysfunction.

Quote:
like PS3, XBox360, Wii, DS, or PC games (possibly GBA but I doubt).

So how does one get the money to buy a devkit and lease an office in order to qualify for a PS3, Xbox 360, Wii, or DS license?

Quote:
Not NES games, as much as I like these they are not commercial anymore and shoudn't be IMO.

Apart from famiclones and "plug and play TV games" based on NOACs.

Quote:
Chances are that it will be considered rare and that people will sell it more expensive than the original price on ebay, something I would personally have if the game was mine

If you're seeing prices for your work on eBay shoot up, then start another eBay account and covertly auction "complete near mint" copies of your work. (Unlike Amazon, eBay doesn't frown on multiple accounts.) Or have a friend or relative auction the occasional copy.

Quote:
You are getting informations, help and progamming tools on the internet by people who shared that freely and you use that to make money, which I consider dishonnest.

Making money off free software happens outside the retro-console scene. Look at how many PC games and commercial console games were built using GCC, Perl, Lua, FreeType, libpng, IJG libjpeg, Ogg Vorbis, or other free software.

Quote:
If everyone had that mentaily, we would then have to buy emulator, romhacks, roms, etc

But look at the emergence of GNU/Linux and FreeBSD into a world dominated by commercial UNIX. This shows shows that not every developer will have that mentality.

There's nothing wrong with making or taking a Free engine and then putting proprietary assets on top of it. The ability to combine free software with other value-added products or services is one of the main draws of free software.

by on (#41990)
So if you were to write a Windows game in C++ with Notepad++, create the graphics with GIMP, and compile it with the MinGW32 compiler, it would be morally wrong to sell it?

[edit]
what tepples said. -_-

by on (#41991)
Considering it's the NES, a lot of things are readily available that would replace this.

"Geminim"? Just find one of the other ten billion variations of Nim (or don't bother, since it's solved)

Siamond? There are a billion clones of Simon already, just go find one of those.

Mystic Pillars? Play Magic Jewelry instead. Or hell, Columns on the Genesis or Game Gear/MS.

Charging money for these things -- Literally half the price of a brand new game for PS3/XB360/etc -- is ... prohibitively expensive.



Oh, on that note, I noticed that Retrozone no longer sells EEPROMs or mappers. Gee, I wonder why.

by on (#41992)
I dont think siv is trying "to make a living out of this". Just some extra pocket change. Also....if the authors of a program do not wish the program to be used to make commercial stuff...they should put a disclaimer on it. That should cover it.

by on (#41996)
Quote:
Charging money for these things -- Literally half the price of a brand new game for PS3/XB360/etc -- is ... prohibitively expensive.

If it's really prohibitively expensive, then he won't sell any.

by on (#42000)
Xkeeper wrote:
Oh, on that note, I noticed that Retrozone no longer sells EEPROMs or mappers. Gee, I wonder why.

If you are actually wondering, it is simply because EPROMs didn't sell. Anyone with a programmer knows where to get them, and anyone without a programmer can't use them. The "mappers" are just plain 74hc161/74hc32 chips. Has nothing to do with cost, profits, legality, ethics, etc. Just a cleaner website. All the boards, Ciclones, and MMC1 CPLD are still up. I can hit the checkbox if you really feel like buying some EPROMs tho.


Bregalad wrote:
You are getting informations, help and progamming tools on the internet by people who shared that freely and you use that to make money, which I consider dishonnest.

Guess kevtris has to go clear out all the Ciclone and CopyNES posts. Loopy has to erase his PowerPak FDS info. Any Garage Cart, Squeedo, MidiNES talk better stop now. Other information about games like NESnake, Pegs, Vegavox, etc need to be removed too. I assume the UFROM boards will now be given out free, and that SX-Flash will never be sold and all schematics/gerber files will be posted. All those made money, had help from others, and almost certainly used free software at some point.

This is a public forum, anyone can use any info to make money. If you have a problem with that, don't post. There are other people that will help with no expectations of payment, and Sivak has certainly helped others without payment.


Bregalad wrote:
I am *not* going to buy any NE$ "homebrew" games no matter what anyone says. I am interested in NESdev not NE$dev.

If you don't think his game is worth money, don't buy it. It really is that simple. No thread crapping needed. Others have no problem paying for hard work, and would like to play NES games on a NES system instead of an emulator. After all running code on actual systems is how the last 2 NES "bugs" have been found.

by on (#42003)
Bregalad, just wait until the time when daddy won't be paying your bills and giving you a roof to live under and you'll realize that there isn't much time to work on hobbyist projects, and if we can make a few bucks out of our work it certainly helps.

If/when I finish a game, I'll probably try to sell it in a nice cart with good artwork, manual and all that shit for the people who really care, but I will probably distribute the ROM also, as these things get distributed anyway. People who care about that special extra and want to support you will buy it, but fighting piracy is pointless, specially when we are pirates as well.

by on (#42004)
Money exchange is similar to idea sharing, where the exchange makes all parties better off than before. Bunnyboy and kevtris sell NES development-related items. The money goes to fund further projects of theirs, some related to the NES. The hardware sold is then used by people who freely share their findings and creations made with its help. This benefits everyone. Eliminating hardware exchange would reduce people here to giving it out for free, an unsustainable activity for almost anyone. If and when NES development becomes so active that there are lots of people advertising things and disrupting the atmosphere here, things can be done to address it.

by on (#42010)
Quote:
If/when I finish a game, I'll probably try to sell it in a nice cart with good artwork, manual and all that shit for the people who really care, but I will probably distribute the ROM also, as these things get distributed anyway. People who care about that special extra and want to support you will buy it, but fighting piracy is pointless, specially when we are pirates as well

I fully agree with that, and that's pretty much what I said all allong, if you distribute the ROM freely.
Quote:
If you don't think his game is worth money, don't buy it. It really is that simple. No thread crapping needed. Others have no problem paying for hard work, and would like to play NES games on a NES system instead of an emulator. After all running code on actual systems is how the last 2 NES "bugs" have been found.

All right, but again as long as you release the game as both a ROM and an actual cartridge, I see no problem. It it is cartridge only it really does not make sense I think, as I don't think something I can't try is worth the money.

Quote:
Guess kevtris has to go clear out all the Ciclone and CopyNES posts. Loopy has to erase his PowerPak FDS info. Any Garage Cart, Squeedo, MidiNES talk better stop now. Other information about games like NESnake, Pegs, Vegavox, etc need to be removed too. I assume the UFROM boards will now be given out free, and that SX-Flash will never be sold and all schematics/gerber files will be posted. All those made money, had help from others, and almost certainly used free software at some point.

I'm not sure what you mean here. In case you're wondering, my SX-Flash is not working at all currently and I don't know if it ever will. I did never intent to sell it or anything, on the countrary I bought it for personal use (along with componants that goes with it) and wasted quite some money in doing that.

At least it filled into the case if you ignore the fact it is way too thick. I could share all gerber files and shematics if someone wants, but I don't have the programm to read them any longer so this is a bit confusing to me. I still have the files tough, so if anyone has orcad and are actually asking I see no problem. I enjoyed doing these actually, so I wouldn't mind sharing.[/quote]

by on (#42012)
Bregalad wrote:
All right, but again as long as you release the game as both a ROM and an actual cartridge, I see no problem. It it is cartridge only it really does not make sense I think, as I don't think something I can't try is worth the money.

He said there will be a demo ROM, so you can try it before you buy it, then what's the problem? Still think you deserve the full thing for free just because its NES? That somehow makes his effort worthless?


Bregalad wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean here.

Except for your board those are all commercial products, advertised here, sold for money. I absolutely guarantee kevtris made more profit from his Ciclones than Sivak has from all his games. Where were you to complain about advertising when he posted how to buy them? You even posted in the UFROM thread right after the price list. Are you only bitching about advertising now because you might actually want Sivak's game? Everything else is fine to charge for, but $ivak i$ $crewing you becau$e he want$ a very $mall amount of ca$h?

by on (#42013)
bunnyboy wrote:
He said there will be a demo ROM, so you can try it before you buy it, then what's the problem?

Oh it's already much better but it's still not the full game.
Quote:
That somehow makes his effort worthless?

Not worth money *is not the same as* worthless.
Quote:
Except for your board those are all commercial products, advertised here, sold for money. I absolutely guarantee kevtris made more profit from his Ciclones than Sivak has from all his games. Where were you to complain about advertising when he posted how to buy them? You even posted in the UFROM thread right after the price list. Are you only bitching about advertising now because you might actually want Sivak's game? Everything else is fine to charge for, but $ivak i$ $crewing you becau$e he want$ a very $mall amount of ca$h?

Well, I don't care about any of those products, because they are not needed at all do develop games for the NES or any other consoles. I wish the CIC would never have been reverse-engineered tough, as there would never have been all this money thing. But well I'll deal with facts and stop complaining if I have to.
In fact I don't care much about Sivak's game more than anyonther, it's just that recently many people have evoqued money related to NESdev when it wasn't the case before, and this highly irritates me.

Sivak's game doesn't really look really good anyway. He found nothing else than loads of spikes to have difficulty, the hero really looks bland and not cool at all, and the jump seems to be linear instead of parabolic which sounds awfull. Anyway I shouldn't say that because he'll fix those problems and make more money because more peolpe will like the demo if it does looks good due to my advice, something I don't want to happen.

If at least Sivak would have come to the board as an experienced programmers for years, I could easily have not been bothered about that. But he came unable to write a "hello world" programm less than 2 years ago, and now he wants to sell games to us who naively gave him advice ! Kevtris did not come on the board asking what a resistor is as far as I recall.

by on (#42015)
Ok man thats just weak. Dissing someones game just cause your losing an argument is just weak. Period

edit: dont forget kev probably used info gathered in that one thread. I know he found the debug mode himself but stil.

by on (#42017)
Bregalad wrote:
If at least Sivak would have come to the board as an experienced programmers for years, I could easily have not been bothered about that. But he came unable to write a "hello world" programm less than 2 years ago, and now he wants to sell games to us who naively gave him advice !

Wow, my opinion of you just dropped to zero. I, for one, welcome anyone new who has a thing or two to show US.

by on (#42020)
Oh allright it doesn't look really bad else I wouldn't have bothred all that way along. Just that it doesn't look awesomely perfectly good enough to be a real purchase anyway.

And if your opinion of my decrased as I said that, my opinion of all of you is deacreasing as you're defending guys who gather money instead of guy who puts actual tought in making games. Money money money, oh come on let's talk about something else or it will be civil war. Especially if I'm arround, which is not a good thing.

by on (#42021)
Sure you've put "alot of thought" into your games. And where can I buy/find/download these?

by on (#42022)
Bregalad wrote:
Well, I don't care about any of those products, because they are not needed at all do develop games for the NES or any other consoles.

Sivak's game is not needed to develop games, so why is it now a problem? Why is him selling a cart for ~$30 a problem, when that is almost exactly the price memblers was charging for a completed UFROM cart? Want to bet that the next Garage Cart will be about the same price, and you won't complain that it isn't free?


Bregalad wrote:
I wish the CIC would never have been reverse-engineered tough, as there would never have been all this money thing.
But well I'll deal with facts and stop complaining if I have to.

Are you ignoring the facts that reproductions were made (for profit!) for 10 years, and hundreds of midiNES carts were sold (for profit!) before the CIC was reverse engineered? Or that homebrew was already being sold on carts like the Garage Cart? Ciclone just means original carts don't need to be destroyed, not that suddenly there's massive profits.


Bregalad wrote:
In fact I don't care much about Sivak's game more than anyonther, it's just that recently many people have evoqued money related to NESdev when it wasn't the case before, and this highly irritates me.

There were always products being sold, you just didn't care about them enough to complain. Money certainly isn't stopping anything new from happening, but has definitely created many new things that you can safely continue ignoring if you don't care about the physical hardware.


Bregalad wrote:
If at least Sivak would have come to the board as an experienced programmers for years, I could easily have not been bothered about that.

And now that he is experienced, with more finished projects than most people here, he still has to give away everything free? Even though you say you aren't even interested and it is a bad game, if he makes $1/hr its horrible? How many years of NES experience are required before something can be sold? He doesn't yet have a software engineering degree, is that also needed?

by on (#42027)
Quote:
Sivak's game is not needed to develop games, so why is it now a problem? Why is him selling a cart for ~$30 a problem, when that is almost exactly the price memblers was charging for a completed UFROM cart? Want to bet that the next Garage Cart will be about the same price, and you won't complain that it isn't free?

Well, you got the point it's not really a problem. I would not bother paying for hardware if I were able to. But I'm really bothered that people are wanting to make non-freeware here. It's like I could say :
"0001010111010101011111101001010100110".
Wow now the string what I wrote about cost $10k. How can you proof that is wrong ? This is proprietary software and all.

If they want to do paying software I guess that's not really my problem, but the annoyance really comes when the come to show off in a thead that was nothing but blatant advertising.
If it would be like :
"hey I'm going to sell a game blah blah" I just wouldn't have bothered.

Here it was more like :
"Look at what I did that is great huh ?"
"Yeah it looks cool"
"Well then you will have to pay to play that HAHAHAHAHA"

And that really annoyed and angried me. It looks like pure provocation from someone who took 2 years to write some games to act like that in front of people like me and other people on this board too who are getting their much more complete projects to progress slowly for more than 4 years.

Anyway it's not that much a big deal, I'm not interested at all in that and if other people are it's noe of my buisne$$. Simply, it really frustrates me how blatant the advertising is and the fact people think they can just get money by having fun in coding games because a few people in the world are actually professional game developpers and they think they are one of them. I don't think I'm able to be like one of them, or if I am, I am about 20 years late :wink:

On a last note, is releasing a game that is not ESRB or PEGI licenced commercially legal at all ? I highly doubt that.

EDIT : And I don't think there has been any homebrew game that was exclusively commercial yet. This should be the very first I guess, or I missed somthing (and I don't care anyway). The garage cart was a compilation of games that could be downloaded for free.

by on (#42028)
I figure I should weigh in here since I've written and sold a game, and have worked on most of the front AND back end of homebrew stuff for over a decade... going on 13 or so years now.

I think sivak has all the right in the world to do what he wants with his game. He's the one that has invested countless hours writing it, shouldn't he get a say in how it's used or released? Sure it seems like a tease to not release a ROM, but that's his choice and his alone.

Writing homebrew games is something you do for fun, and if you can make a few bucks off it, cool. The amount of money he'll make will maybe amount to 20 cents an hour or so if he's lucky. This definitely isn't a business you'll make a killing in. If he wants to make a few hundred bucks (if he's lucky) that's cool. I bet he will use the money and plow it back into NES development, buying tools or something like that to help in the effort.

I admire his work; that financial incentive seems to be good enough to keep him producing games. I've seen almost all other homebrew projects grind to a halt 'cause the author got tired or busy or something. I am no exception :-)

I used the few bucks I made selling ciclones and plowed it back in, buying carts to RE, chips and tools to help in my hobby. I definitely don't do stuff in the hobby to make money to live off of, and almost every bit I make is plowed back in 100% to advance my knowledge and hobby by buying supplies, tools, books, software, etc. Reverse engineering stuff is very costly- you need super expensive tools and equipment, long hours, and a supply of the things to reverse engineer.

SO that's my take on it.

As for the CIC reverse engineering, it wasn't just me. Don't forget everyone else that contributed to it. I just spent 3 or 4 weeks of 4-8 hours a day helping that and then writing the code for the CIClone.

All the information needed to produce a similar CIC clone device is out there now, and theoretically someone could come up with one on their own. I just had the skillz and tools and patience/perserverence to make it a reality. I was glad to do it, too. It gives people a way to make cartridges now without having to rip up existing games, which should bring the cost down on homebrews because carts no longer have to be procured, stripped, and/or modified.

by on (#42029)
Bregalad wrote:
It looks like pure provocation from someone who took 2 years to write some games to act like that in front of people like me and other people on this board too who are getting their much more complete projects to progress slowly for more than 4 years

So if he worked slower, it would be better for you? Suddenly its ok if he spends the next 5 years on it instead of working continuously?


Bregalad wrote:
Simply, it really frustrates me how blatant the advertising is and the fact people think they can just get money by having fun in coding games because a few people in the world are actually professional game developpers and they think they are one of them.

Once again, how is that different from every other product on here. 20+ pages of CIC dev work, but HAHA you have to BUY a Ciclone! Its just 0s and 1s, made with free MPLAB software. How many people complained?


Bregalad wrote:
On a last note, is releasing a game that is not ESRB or PEGI licenced commercially legal at all ? I highly doubt that.

Both entirely voluntary.


Bregalad wrote:
EDIT : And I don't think there has been any homebrew game that was exclusively commercial yet. This should be the very first I guess, or I missed somthing (and I don't care anyway).

You missed the (at least) 8 that have already been done. Glider, Chunkout 2, Sudoku 2007, Mystic Pillars, Super NeSnake 2, Geminim, Siamond, Tic-Tac XO.

by on (#42037)
@kevtris : Yeah this is really the good mentality. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like Sivak and his team have this good mentality. They come doing blatant advertising and this is not welcome.

Quote:
You missed the (at least) 8 that have already been done. Glider, Chunkout 2, Sudoku 2007, Mystic Pillars, Super NeSnake 2, Geminim, Siamond, Tic-Tac XO.

Oh my god you are right. I never noticed that ! Altough NESnake 2 has (thanks god !!) been released for free and is yet by very very very far the best NES homebrew ever I admire Matrix for his really great game and incredible music. He's really a model to follow when it comes to homebrewing. He did quality instead of quantity, just like I'm trying to do right now. It seems like Sivak and his team are really privileging quantity instead of quality.
Anyway let's stop taking about that because it annoys me it is nonsense and after all Sivak and his team does whathever they want, altough the tricky advertising really god me really mad. Anyway I couldn't care less as as people won't be able to play the game, nobody is crazy enough to pay about $30 to play Tic-tac too when you can do it with paper or download a free version for the SNES that does feature music.

About the PEGI or ESRB thing I will make another thread as it is not related to that.

by on (#42042)
Bregalad, maybe I missed something that Sivak did here that really crossed the line, and that would explain all your harsh underhanded messages towards him. Please point me to the evidence; I want to become informed!

by on (#42044)
Bregalad wrote:
They come doing blatant advertising and this is not welcome.

Yet again, how is this different from the advertising of every other product here? Why is it only Sivak's game that you bitch about, and not all the other products that sell more and make more profit?



Bregalad wrote:
Altough NESnake 2 has (thanks god !!) been released for free

Super NeSnake 2 has not been released free. AFAIK it will also be on Garage Cart 2, which will not be free but will hopefully be blatantly advertised here.


Bregalad wrote:
and is yet by very very very far the best NES homebrew ever I admire Matrix for his really great game and incredible music.

Yet you wouldn't even consider paying under $30 to have a NES cart of the greatest homebrew ever, just because you feel you are entitled to get it free? Nobody is crazy enough to pay real money for a snake game when I can just get one free for my phone anyways.


Bregalad wrote:
Sivak and his team

His amazing team of super mutant professional game programmers? As far as I know he is just one guy with some spare time... Who else is on this dream team of corporate greed?


Bregalad wrote:
are really privileging quantity instead of quality.

Then don't buy it. Done. Nobody is forcing you to, and you can safely ignore it just like all the other commercial products here you don't care about.

I know you haven't been paying attention to homebrew at all, but especially his quality is going up very fast. (And this is for everyone) The difference with Sivak is he actually completes one project before starting on another more challenging project, something I wish more homebrewers would do. Instead of spending many years to never finish their first massive game, he started off with a couple easy ones and is now into medium difficulty much faster. Of course Neotoxin is a more complicated game than Sivak's current platformer, but if it never gets finished it isn't comparable. Maybe his next game will be that level and he will know what it takes to complete it.

by on (#42049)
Quote:
Bregalad, maybe I missed something that Sivak did here that really crossed the line, and that would explain all your harsh underhanded messages towards him. Please point me to the evidence; I want to become informed!

Oh come on I just say I don't agree with the policy of someone and they immediately say I'm harsh.
You'd want to check the end of the other thread before the split, it get you informed.

Quote:
Yet again, how is this different from the advertising of every other product here? Why is it only Sivak's game that you bitch about, and not all the other products that sell more and make more profit?

What other material are you talking about ? The powerpak was never supposed to be free, nor did the garage cart or anything like that. Again when you pay for material you actually get some plastic and silicium, so of course it is worth some money and is impossible to get for free.

There is the older sivak games but as far as I can tell they were never advertised here which is a good thing (or if they was I completely missed that).
Then there is the CIClone, which I'm sure that I complained about the source not being available. The author promised to release it at a later time so I stopped complaining, after all it was a hard work the guy has done and required expensive material. I can't think of any other "products" you could tell.
Quote:
Super NeSnake 2 has not been released free. AFAIK it will also be on Garage Cart 2, which will not be free but will hopefully be blatantly advertised here.

Hopefully not here.

Quote:
His amazing team of super mutant professional game programmers? As far as I know he is just one guy with some spare time... Who else is on this dream team of corporate greed?

Hmm there is no team ? For some reason I was sure they were. There were other guys defending the fact the game was commercial much more aggressively than what sivak did, and I'm mad at them more than at sivak. It would seem even weirder if they are not with him and are not sharing the money at all. Especially the one who did the last post before the split, you should see who I'm talking about.
But I refuse to be angry against some particular on the board anyway else things will really go in a bad way and I don't want that to happen.

Quote:
I know you haven't been paying attention to homebrew at all

My, my, my, you couldn't be more wrong. My activeness on the board seems to prove otherwise ! I am interested in other prople's project and like to share ideas whith them in order to help eachother to come with better homebrew games. I would probably have done very crappy games without beneficting of the greater programming experience of people here.

I just haven't payed attetion to cash or anything that is not downloadable for free, which is completely different.

Quote:
The difference with Sivak is he actually completes one project before starting on another more challenging project, something I wish more homebrewers would do. Instead of spending many years to never finish their first massive game, he started off with a couple easy ones and is now into medium difficulty much faster. Of course Neotoxin is a more complicated game than Sivak's current platformer, but if it never gets finished it isn't comparable. Maybe his next game will be that level and he will know what it takes to complete it.

I guess you get a good point here. It's true that not many project have got finished, exept the awesome NESnake2. Maybe Sivak have or will release awesome projects, but who knowns as nobody will be able to play them, or only people living in America or being able to have a paypal account will be able to. So maybe he desserves admiration, maybe not, I will probably never know unless he changes his policy.

I was supposed to be doing a heavy complex RPG as my first object, but obviously it just wasn't possible :cry:
So I decided to make a simpler linear game that has a very simple story and I am close to getting something really great done I think, but I need much more levels and enemies. The harder part by far is dealing with enemie's AI, something not too simple nor too complex, and coming with creative ideas for bosses.

As for simpler projects, I personally wouldn't have spent years to clone simple games because it's probably not as fun and less ambitious, altough you are most likely to get what you wanted in short delays. You'd want to add your own ideas to improve the thing. For example NESnake 2 is a prefect example of this : It takes the simple Snake game you could play on a phone, but improved it in a way it makes it unique with cool graphics, levels and *awesome* music. If Tic-Tac-Toe by Sivak is improved in such a way or not I will never be able to know, so I can't congratulate him not be harsh with him.

by on (#42050)
Hehe I guess you were talking about me. Siv has no team. Anyway what do you mean with the "powerpak was never supposed to be free" thats a shitty argument....siv's game never was meant to be free either.

edit: iirc tic tac toe was not sivaks could be wrong.

by on (#42052)
bunnyboy wrote:
The difference with Sivak is he actually completes one project before starting on another more challenging project, something I wish more homebrewers would do. Instead of spending many years to never finish their first massive game, he started off with a couple easy ones and is now into medium difficulty much faster.

In other words, "Real artists ship."

Could anyone point me to Sivak's blatant advertising? I still haven't found anything.

by on (#42060)
kevtris wrote:
I used the few bucks I made selling ciclones and plowed it back in, buying carts to RE, chips and tools to help in my hobby. I definitely don't do stuff in the hobby to make money to live off of, and almost every bit I make is plowed back in 100% to advance my knowledge and hobby by buying supplies, tools, books, software, etc.

That sounds a lot like a not-for-profit organization. investing the profit (called "surplus") into expansion of its services.

bunnyboy wrote:
Nobody is crazy enough to pay real money for a snake game when I can just get one free for my phone anyways.

Nobody pays for Snake? I'm sure Athena (Wit's), Midway and Disney (Tron), and even Konami (METALGEARSOLID4) would disagree ;-)

by on (#42068)
Quote:
Nobody pays for Snake? I'm sure Athena (Wit's), Midway and Disney (Tron), and even Konami (METALGEARSOLID4) would disagree Wink

What about Rare (Battletoads) ?
Quote:
That sounds a lot like a not-for-profit organization. investing the profit (called "surplus") into expansion of its services.

Yes and this is a good thing in my opinion.
Quote:
Hehe I guess you were talking about me. Siv has no team. Anyway what do you mean with the "powerpak was never supposed to be free" thats a shitty argument....siv's game never was meant to be free either.

No, the powerpack was never supposed to be free because it's not a game but a piece of hardware.

When Sivak posted the video I really assumed the game was free of course. There would have been no reason for it not to be.
But then the guys come say "ohhh what a great shame you'll have to buy it instead" which I call a blatant advertising. If they would have say the game was commercial straight away I wouldn't even have wated the video and this wouldn't have bothered me at all.
This really got me mad, as you noticed. Now that I've seen that I can belive that, before I just couldn't. Let's pass this now please. I don't want this thread to continue forever, as there is no point in doing that.

I really couldn't think someone would have such a badass mentality to sell games they "homebrew" without anyone being able to play a ROM first. Again I do not bother anyone selling games and making money if the ROM is also available, as this makes much more sense in my opinion.

by on (#42072)
So you basicly admit that you just got your underwear too tight cause someone showed you a ferarri you thought you were getting for free and then said: "nope you gotta pay for it"

by on (#42074)
Holy crap what a silly discussion this is! The ROM *will* be available to anyone with a Torrent program. As people have said, no one is forcing you to buy the game or support him monetarily in any way. Others will, and I can't see your problem with that. (yes you've given explanations, but I think I speak for most people here when I say they sound ridiculous)

If obtaining knowledge for free disqualified you from making money off it we wouldn't have had any games to begin with. After all, primary education is free in most countries, and every program needs some basic math to tick.

The only issue I have with Sivak's "blatant advertising" is the "pirates against piracy" mentality he displayed, but that's probably a topic for a different thread.

by on (#42087)
Bananmos wrote:
Holy crap what a silly discussion this is! The ROM *will* be available to anyone with a Torrent program. As people have said, no one is forcing you to buy the game or support him monetarily in any way. Others will, and I can't see your problem with that. (yes you've given explanations, but I think I speak for most people here when I say they sound ridiculous)

If obtaining knowledge for free disqualified you from making money off it we wouldn't have had any games to begin with. After all, primary education is free in most countries, and every program needs some basic math to tick.

The only issue I have with Sivak's "blatant advertising" is the "pirates against piracy" mentality he displayed, but that's probably a topic for a different thread.


Agreed. Pretty much anything you'll find yourself able to back up :wink: . I mean, even books are obtainable if you know where to go. There's pretty much no way to avoid piracy, unless a PC is incapable of viewing/running the material. For example, a PS3 game is probably hard to pirate at this point because well, a PS3 game requires a real PS3 to run (I think at least, otherwise your computer is being strangled to death by the amount of crap it has to do).

by on (#42088)
Celius wrote:
There's pretty much no way to avoid piracy, unless a PC is incapable of viewing/running the material.

To play a 3- or 4-player game, you need a sufficiently large monitor that four bodies can fit around. Most monitors connected to PCs aren't nearly big enough for that, and PC games tend to work around this by acting like handhelds, running separate copies of the game on separate computers on a LAN. So in order to pirate a game that uses the Four Score hub, you need either an NES and a PowerPak, or an SDTV and a scan converter (which translates VGA signals into composite) in the same room as the PC, or an HDTV in the same room as a PC.

Quote:
For example, a PS3 game is probably hard to pirate at this point because well, a PS3 game requires a real PS3 to run (I think at least, otherwise your computer is being strangled to death by the amount of crap it has to do).

In the PS2 days, a PS2 game needed a PS2 to run, but people managed to mod their PS2s to run games from DVD-R media.

by on (#42089)
Well I guess I mean that it's pretty much impossible to avoid piracy of the torrent kind unless you really just can't use it without owning a legitimate copy. For example, a trombone can't be torrented (yeah yeah, there's midi crap, but whatever), but something like a NES game is pretty much completely vulnerable to piracy. That was pretty much my only point (well, Bananmos's point kind of).

But most PCs aren't powerful enough to emulate PS3 games, I don't think. It may be possible to burn PS3 games onto DVDs, but it probably won't be possible to just emulate them.

by on (#42094)
Quote:
But most PCs aren't powerful enough to emulate PS3 games, I don't think. It may be possible to burn PS3 games onto DVDs, but it probably won't be possible to just emulate them.

As far I know PS3 games are on a blu-ray support which has higher capacity than DVDs, so you'd have to wait a long while until burnable blue-rays come out. Maybe some smaller games runs on DVD tough I have no idea. I only saw a real PS3 once in a shop, and it was something like $480 used, which make me laugh, as only the PS2 was that expensive new.

But yeah it sounds like the PS3 has really really the top of hi-tech in it, and since you need hardware at least 10 times more powerfull to get emulation with decent speed and mid-decent accuracy, we would probably want to wait a really long time before we get PC able to emulate the PC3 for a decent price. But there is chances that this will happen someday, tough, seeing the high rate at which electronics evolves.

Quote:
In the PS2 days, a PS2 game needed a PS2 to run, but people managed to mod their PS2s to run games from DVD-R media.

We're still in the PS2 days, and I don't know any decent emulator that is able to play a PS2 game I have insertede in my DVD reader like PS1 emulators does. Even if there was one you'd probably need a very powerfull PC and a very powerfull graphic card in order to do that.

Quote:
Holy crap what a silly discussion this is! The ROM *will* be available to anyone with a Torrent program. As people have said, no one is forcing you to buy the game or support him monetarily in any way. Others will, and I can't see your problem with that. (yes you've given explanations, but I think I speak for most people here when I say they sound ridiculous)

You are probably right. Since I will be able to download the ROM I don't really care, I have no reason to be frustrated so you are right, we'll just wait a little longer to play it.
Techinically there is probably ways you could make a game hard to dump : Using non-standard memory stockage (not 27Cxxx EPROMs), using a weird mapper that does not exist in iNES, having a PIC microcontroller that would lock the CE of the chip exepts on some conditions who are only met on a real NES, or stuff like that. Anyway it would be worthless as it would be perfectly possible to pirate and all.[/quote]

by on (#42096)
((I originally posted this in the wrong thread, grrr... ;-) ))


First, I appreciate the members of the nesdev community taking our policies seriously. Please read the below thoroughly, as it should shed some light on things. Summary: things are different now, and I really should update our policies page to reflect that. I will try to do that within the next few days, but my health these days isn't so great (for those who know me personally, my blog documents the series of problem I've been having).

For many years, we've taken a "you're not allowed to sell stuff using your account" approach, simply because at the time we were a 501(c)3 organisation (non-profit), which meant we would've had to involve ourselves directly with every form of financial transaction our users had (gotta track all of it somehow, since they had to be claimed as charitable donations) -- I didn't want to deal with that (I'd rather just file our IRS forms with what we received in donations). All of this was done while I was still living in Oregon, by the way.

501(c)3 status is a lot of work, mainly intended for organisations which have a number of employees. Parodius only has 3 people -- myself, our co-admin who's been busy with real life since getting married + having a kid, and another co-admin who's also our datacentre guy. I'm the founder/owner, and I'm the one responsible for all changes and maintenances. Everything goes through me, more or less. It's my baby.

Well, things in recent years have changed. First, I (and Parodius as a whole) now live in California. I never filed an update to inform the government that we had relocated. NPO status isn't something you have to "renew" in Oregon or California, but you do have to periodically keep in touch with the state so that they know you're exempt, where you are, etc... I haven't done that in 4 or 5 years at least, and I'm absolutely certain that status has been inadvertently revoked by now.

Secondly, and this is probably going to surprise some folks: there are in fact Parodius users who are selling things from their websites. For example, the band Joy Electric (who we host) has direct PayPal shopping cart links for their T-shirts, CDs, and other stuff. Let me make this crystal clear:

I'm absolutely 100% cool with that, even though it's a direct violation of our current policies.

We (Parodius) get absolutely zero returns from purchases made through their site. Again: I'm 100% okay with that. JE is somewhat of an independent band, although they have their own label, but occasionally use Tooth & Nail (who is quite mainstream). I know the band member(s) and his wife. There's an personal relationship there, not a commercial one. Meaning: the goal isn't "to make tons of money".

Another example: NESWorld has a buy/sale/trade section of their forum, where financial transactions do in fact happen (but they use Paypal or money orders or whatever). Parodius bandwidth is being used to make those sales known, duh, but the point of NESWorld isn't to make money, obviously.

The main point:

I really don't want Parodius-hosted sites to become commercially-oriented in the sense that a hosted site is dedicated to selling/advertising software/music/games/etc.. Sites of that nature I do not want to host, which is also why I don't allow banners/etc. -- because I don't want the Parodius network to be associated with things that have plagued the Web and made it an annoying place to be.

nesdev.com is not a commercially-oriented site in any way, so if Memblers or others decided one day "Hey! Let's make some nesdev T-shirts and mugs and sell them!", or "Let's make a nesdev PCB and sell it through the site!", I'd be completely cool with that.

The same goes for forum visitors wanting to sell stuff they've developed. If some guy shows up and says "hey, I made this game, please check it out, I want to make it into a cart and sell it" and decides to put links to it in his forum post, and the forum mods/admins are cool with it, then I am too.

Meaning: I'm cool with a nesdev forum regular trying to sell something he made on cart, or get proceeds going for something like making a dev PCB en masse. I'm NOT cool with the nesdev site being turned solely into a "click here to buy our dev PCBs!" site.

There's some morality involved in the whole thing, and it's really hard to document that (in the Policies page) in a way that makes sense. Does all of this make sense to people? Am I being reasonable?

So if the forum mods/admins want to make a buy/trade/sell forum section, that would probably work best. I know it works for the NESWorld guys, and I'm cool with it.

Hope that clears things up...?

EDIT: I've updated our Policies page to reflect the above.

by on (#42098)
Bregalad wrote:
As far I know PS3 games are on a blu-ray support which has higher capacity than DVDs, so you'd have to wait a long while until burnable blue-rays come out.

How long is a long time? Google bd-r

Quote:
Techinically there is probably ways you could make a game hard to dump : Using non-standard memory stockage (not 27Cxxx EPROMs), using a weird mapper that does not exist in iNES

Better yet, using a weird mapper that contains a crypto-processor. Atari Games did a simple version of this with the SLAPSTIC and SLOOP mappers in some of its arcade titles. Capcom encrypted the data lines on its CPS-2 platform, which hampered emulation for years until 1. binary diffs between the encrypted and decrypted versions of CPS-2 roms appeared as the CPS-2 was being discontinued, and then finally 2. the cipher got cryptanalyzed six years after that.

Oh, and thanks koitsu for the policy update.