SNES lockout chip question

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SNES lockout chip question
by shiny on 2009-10-04 (#51077)

Hi,

I have to apologize for a newbie question, but I'd like to ask how does putting the NTSC cart into PAL console manifest?
The reason I ask this is that I only recently got a (PAL) SNES, and besides a few PAL games I have one game which doesn't run. SNES just displays green screen, as if no game is inserted. The cart in question has no plastic case, it's just the board, and while it fits perfectly in a slot, it doesn't run. It doesn't constantly reset (like the NES did), it just stays green.
So, I'm trying to figure if the cart is broken, or my PAL lockout chip just blocks the (possibly) NTSC cart.

Thanks in advance, and sorry if this post is being offtopic.

by MottZilla on 2009-10-04 (#51087)

If you can open a PAL cartridge you could compare the lockout chip on the game in question with a known PAL game. On the chip itself it should have some words printed on it and they should be the same on PAL games and different on an NTSC game.

Also I believe that a solid green screen doing nothing sounds like maybe the connection between the cartridge and system is dirty or perhaps you plugged the cartridge in backwards. If it was the lockout chip then the system would either keep resetting or stay in a reset state, I'm not sure exactly. If you were really curious you could try very carefully covering the lockout chip's clocking signal or something like that to disrupt it and see what happens. You could test it with a PAL cart or NTSC or just turn on the system with no game inserted. That will show you what the system does with no lockout chip and likely the same thing as if you had the incorrect lockout chip.

By the way I don't see this as being off topic at all. You're asking about the SNES, in the SNES forum. It doesn't really have to be development related.

by shiny on 2009-10-04 (#51090)

Thanks for the reply. CIC on both PAL Street Fighter 2 Turbo and Super Mario World says D413A, while the unknown's game CIC is D411A.

Anyways, according to this site it's one of the following:
-Cybernator
-Magical Quest Starring Mickey Mouse, The
-Street Fighter II

I still don't know if it's carts fault, or the region lock.
I tried holding reset with the working Mario World inside, and the screen kept being green, so I can't tell if isn't running or is being constantly reseted.

Actually, there's one more clue - I took out Super Mario World from it's case and put inside the unknown game instead. It fitted perfectly, yet still didn't work.

I will probably just try disabling the lockout chip on the console, and see if that fixes the problem.

In the meantime, here the pic of the board:

EDIT: BTW, the green color was coming from the RF cable. When I tried the AV connector (recycled from my N64) it was replaced by blue screen (default on my TV for "no input signal").

EDIT2: OK, apparently I found my answer. According to this:
Quote:
(...) D411A is the USA NTSC variant

So there it is . Thanks for the help. I'll let you know how it works with the CIC disabled.

by shiny on 2009-10-06 (#51152)

Wow, those tiny surface mounted pins were hard as hell to desolder. Thankfully I'm done, and there's no harm done. Actually it works great. Both the NTSC/PAL switch, and the CIC toggle.

The game in question was Super Star Wars, NTSC of course. Thank you MottZilla your help and input, it motivated me work on.

Cheers

by MottZilla on 2009-10-06 (#51161)

Indeed it's no fun soldering or desoldering really small parts. But atleast now you shouldn't have problems with regional lockouts anymore.

by nintendo2600 on 2009-10-09 (#51217)

MottZilla wrote:
Indeed it's no fun soldering or desoldering really small parts. But atleast now you shouldn't have problems with regional lockouts anymore.

Would I be able to do similar with a smurfs PAL cart to run on my NTSC (locked removed) SNES console? I removed the lockout chip on the snes and ran a wire from U8 to u10 which makes it run most pal games but smurfs only lets me choose the language for the game then as it goes to the next screen it stops and says "only for use on PAL systems" or something like that.

by tepples on 2009-10-09 (#51218)

There are two lockouts: the CIC lockout and the PPU lockout. Like the NES, the Super NES has different PPUs in different revisions: one that generates 262 lines with NTSC color and one that generates 312 lines with PAL color. The game probably detects your PAL PPU.

LJ65 for NES checks the PPU lockout to make sure players aren't cheating by using the NTSC cart on a PAL system and making the game run slower to score higher.

by MottZilla on 2009-10-09 (#51219)

For some reason I thought whatever mod was done on PAL systems changed that as well but I suppose not. Being in the US I've never had to worry about PAL and NTSC. But it sounds like really the best way for you to play NTSC games is to buy a separate NTSC system or else you'll have to add ontop of what you are already doing, a Game Genie or similar device to use codes to allow those types of checks to pass. One Game Genie code line should allow you to bypass those types of messages. But it may not work if you try to play special chip games that have lockouts.

by Hojo_Norem on 2009-10-09 (#51220)

tepples wrote:
There are two lockouts: the CIC lockout and the PPU lockout. Like the NES, the Super NES has different PPUs in different revisions: one that generates 262 lines with NTSC color and one that generates 312 lines with PAL color. The game probably detects your PAL PPU.

I think the 50/60Hz switch mod would be able to get around this problem as when I boot say PAL Super Metroid on my PAL SNES with the switch set to 60Hz, I get the the protection screen. Boot in 50Hz and then switch to 60Hz and it's fine. Some games however continually check the refresh rate throughout the game (Super Street Fighter 2 comes to mind).

But the again, I wouldn't be surprised if it dosent work on a NTSC SNES tho... NTSC hardware nearly always seems to be crippled this way...

Is this Battletoads?
by tepples on 2009-10-09 (#51230)

Hojo_Norem wrote:
Some games however continually check the refresh rate throughout the game (Super Street Fighter 2 comes to mind).

But then the Street Fighter II game engines extend vblank to fit bigger copies to VRAM. I can see the letterboxing even on an NTSC Super NES and a crappy TV. Such games would have more reason to crash if the vblank isn't the expected length.

Re: Is this Battletoads?
by Hojo_Norem on 2009-10-09 (#51238)

tepples wrote:
But then the Street Fighter II game engines extend vblank to fit bigger copies to VRAM. I can see the letterboxing even on an NTSC Super NES and a crappy TV. Such games would have more reason to crash if the vblank isn't the expected length.

It dosen't crash, it give you the "region lockout" message. Besides, I have been able to play PAL SFII and SFIIT at 60Hz with no crashing.

by shiny on 2009-10-09 (#51239)

Here are the instructions to make both CIC enable/disable switch, and PAL/NTSC switch. http://mmmonkey.co.uk/console/nintendo/snes-switches-1.htm

Basically it's just grounding some pins on CIC and both PPUs.

Most NTSC games will work on PAL SNES as long as PPUs work in NTSC mode.

by nintendo2600 on 2009-10-18 (#51512)

shiny wrote:
Here are the instructions to make both CIC enable/disable switch, and PAL/NTSC switch. http://mmmonkey.co.uk/console/nintendo/snes-switches-1.htm

Basically it's just grounding some pins on CIC and both PPUs.

Most NTSC games will work on PAL SNES as long as PPUs work in NTSC mode.

This mod makes pretty much all games work on PAL or NTSC systems. I just did the mod and now I think I truely have a universal SNES Thanks for the link

by shiny on 2010-01-29 (#55889)

Hey,

Apparently, I've got NTSC Donkey Kong Country, which does not run with either CIC disabled nor enabled (on PAL SNES). Is that game known to have some additional region checks, or could it be that the cart is borked? The guy I've got it from claims it works with the universal adapter.

Thanks

by Bregalad on 2010-01-29 (#55890)

My PAL DKC works without the universal adapter only on my PAL SNES, and gives me an error message if I make it trough the adapter. The game somehow detect the adapter, I don't know how.

by shiny on 2010-01-29 (#55896)

Hm, it gives me no error with CIC OFF, just a black screen, as if it refuses to run (but is still powered on). If I switch the CIC on, no video signal comes to the TV.
(The CIC ON scenario is same with all other NTSC titles, but they run if CIC is OFF ).

And the part about detecting the adapter freaks me out

by magno on 2010-01-29 (#55897)

Bregalad wrote:
My PAL DKC works without the universal adapter only on my PAL SNES, and gives me an error message if I make it trough the adapter. The game somehow detect the adapter, I don't know how.

The game doesn't detect the adapter, but the video system. In the PAL version there is a piece of code that reads register $213F and checks one bit to recognize the hardware it is running on (PAL or NTSC). If the flag doesn't match with the game region, it resets or prints out a message. Secret of Mana had the same protection, and some others games too.

by Bregalad on 2010-01-29 (#55898)

When I run my PAL Donkey Cong Country with my PAL SNES with an adaptater with a PAL cartridge in the B-SLOT, I get the error message.

Maybe it's because my adapter hack the $213f registers to make NTSC games read that they're on a NTSC system ?

by magno on 2010-01-29 (#55900)

Bregalad wrote:
When I run my PAL Donkey Cong Country with my PAL SNES with an adaptater with a PAL cartridge in the B-SLOT, I get the error message.

Maybe it's because my adapter hack the $213f registers to make NTSC games read that they're on a NTSC system ?

Maybe, it makes sense... but that implies the adapter has some logic on it (some circuitry) and therefore is more advaced that mine: I own a HoneyBee that has only paths on the PCB (no circuitry on it), which route the CIC signals from slot B to the SNES control deck.

by Bregalad on 2010-01-29 (#55910)

Yeah I don't know if my adapter has some circuitery on it I'd have to check that !

by orwannon on 2010-01-29 (#55932)

shiny wrote:
Apparently, I've got NTSC Donkey Kong Country, which does not run with either CIC disabled nor enabled (on PAL SNES). Is that game known to have some additional region checks, or could it be that the cart is borked?

The latter is likely. DKC should run fine on a lockout-modded PAL SNES, at least in 60 Hz mode. Under 50 Hz, it will present the Rare and Nintendo logos and then give you an error message (unless you have region-deprotection circuitry in your adaptor, of course).

by shiny on 2010-01-29 (#55947)

Would resoldering the CIC from my PAL Super Mario World to this kart make any sense?

by orwannon on 2010-01-30 (#55985)

Not really. The best idea would be to test the cart on a NTSC console to see if it works at all.

by Bregalad on 2010-03-16 (#58433)

I just wanted to say that now that I could test it with my super-powerpak I confirm that my adapter definitely somehow highhacks tha $213f register to make games think they're on a NTSC SNES.

So for region locked games... I have to play NTSC games with the adapter, and PAL games without it. For non-region locked games, it's a non-issue.
I also confirm my Power Pak works fine with my adapter so people who have it could spare $3 for the CIC (which I didn't - I went the safe way).

There is also semi-region locked games such as Megaman 7 and Mega Man X, they print a warning message if the wrong region but the game still runs.

Despite the warning, unlike the NES, it's extremely rare to find a game which runs into NTSC/PAL problems with the SNES. The only problem I've ever found was with Chrono Trigger's intro where the music has to find it's way to the ending, some tracks ends while others continue to loop and it sounds ugly. There is probably other games with issues tough I didn't encounter them.