Does the following SNES clone fix the poor audio typical of unlicensed SNES clones?
http://assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11851
http://assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11851
I know 2 users over at http://benheck.com/phpBB/index.php have them. They say that they play everything fine, but it could be they just aren't paying close enough attention to the sound. The board is smaller than a mini-snes though, so that's nice 
No because it uses the same ASICs (as I said in the thread :)
kyuusaku wrote:
No because it uses the same ASICs (as I said in the thread 
I compared the pictures to the previous mini-SNES clone's circuit board, and it looks like the same chipset, but a slightly different layout. Here are pics of the other clone that I am talking about:
http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=counterfeit_snes
That XGA chipset does an OK job with the video, but certain sounds do not play correctly at all. I think that the people who claim that this clone plays most games perfectly are deaf, or maybe they are completely unfamiliar with the actual system that they claim they are a fan of.
Because technology hasn't improved in the past 7 years, as we all know. 
cheese007 wrote:
Because technology hasn't improved in the past 7 years, as we all know.
When it comes to unlicensed console clones, that is often the case.
Can I start laughing now?So far every game has worked perfect or damn close to it. Worst I've seen is the colors being slightly dull on SMW, and I had to strain to see it.
Including Super Mario RPG and other SA-1 games, where the key CIC actually disabled the ROMs like the patent suggested?
Tell me what other games those are and I may be able to help you. I haven't heard any word on Super Mario RPG. Oh and if you guys haven't already figured out, that's my FC Twin on ASSEMBler. If you want, here's a list of games that I know work.
Castlvania Dracula X
Drakken
Illusion of Gaia
Secret of Mana
Chrono Trigger
Final Fantasy II
Final Fantasy III
FF Mystic Quest
Castlvania IV
Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Paladin's Quest
Equinox
Out of this World
Doom
Dungeon Master
Eye of the Beholder
Super Game Boy
Toto-Tek SNES Flash cart
Super Mario Kart
Super Batter Up
Mario Paint
Source: http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.ph ... opic=98313
Castlvania Dracula X
Drakken
Illusion of Gaia
Secret of Mana
Chrono Trigger
Final Fantasy II
Final Fantasy III
FF Mystic Quest
Castlvania IV
Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Paladin's Quest
Equinox
Out of this World
Doom
Dungeon Master
Eye of the Beholder
Super Game Boy
Toto-Tek SNES Flash cart
Super Mario Kart
Super Batter Up
Mario Paint
Source: http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.ph ... opic=98313
cheese007 wrote:
Tell me what other games those are
I, and probably other interested parties, would like someone to go through the list at PHWiki:SNES games with special chips and try a couple from each common category (DSP1, FX v2, C4, SA-1).
Quote:
Doom
Super FX v2 appears to work.
Quote:
Super Game Boy
With which GB games? Does SGB audio (Donkey Kong "help! help!") work? Does Space Invaders arcade mode work?
Quote:
Super Mario Kart
DSP-1 works.
My GB collection is very small, only recently have I gained a major interest in the sytem.
Games that work:
Donkey Kong Land III
Pokemon Pinball
Gameboy Camera
EDIT: Someone on Atari-Age said that the original Legend of Zelda works on the NES side.
Games that work:
Donkey Kong Land III
Pokemon Pinball
Gameboy Camera
EDIT: Someone on Atari-Age said that the original Legend of Zelda works on the NES side.
Quote:
Secret of Mana
Chrono Trigger
Final Fantasy II
Final Fantasy III
Chrono Trigger
Final Fantasy II
Final Fantasy III
[extremist]If you got those, I really cannot see any way one would loose its time playing the others.[/extremist]
More seriously, if Super FX-2 works there is 99% chances that all other special stuff will work too, because the Super FX-2 is the most complicated of them all, and make uses of most ofl special side-pins (maybe I'm wrong, because I'm not a pro in SNES hardware).
What should be checked is games trying obscure hardware tests and that imediately detect pirated stuff using a totally unknown method, such as Donkey Kong Country.
But one other point is the audio. Until one year and a half ago, *ALL* plaforms emulating the SPC700 did handle sample decoding wrongly. This did make no difference for 99% of SNES audio samples, but sound effects in a few games by Squaresof and Capcom were seriously affected. Trying to compare sound effects in Crono Trigger in the real console and any emulating thing give a good idea of the accuracy of SPC700 emulation. Currently, only Alpha-II SPC player decodes noise-samples accurately, and SNES9x is gonna to fix it in its next version I think.
EDIT : Also a good place to check is Dragon Quest VI title screen. If the pizz string sounds bad, it is that the sample decoding algorithm is innacurate (while some innacurate could still decode it right).
Also, SNES translucy effects looks at some places a bit different from the real SNES hardware and both SNES9x and ZSNES, I don't know about hardware clones.
How good is the pack-in controller compared to an official SNES controller? AFAIK, there is no longer any place to get new official SNES controllers... and that is the part of the system that does wear out over the years.
Bregalad wrote:
More seriously, if Super FX-2 works there is 99% chances that all other special stuff will work too, because the Super FX-2 is the most complicated of them all, and make uses of most ofl special side-pins (maybe I'm wrong, because I'm not a pro in SNES hardware).
AFAIK, the Super FX does not use the CIC. The SA-1 does.
Quote:
But one other point is the audio. Until one year and a half ago, *ALL* plaforms emulating the SPC700 did handle sample decoding wrongly.
I'm curious. Link please as to when and where this was discovered?
I would venture to say SA-1 is far more advanced than Super FX-2 which is more or less just a higher clocked Super FX.
Quote:
I'm curious. Link please as to when and where this was discovered?
Well, ask Anti-Resonance, he's the one with worked with all that stuff. I did just notices that samples 0, 1, 4, 6, 7 and 8 of Chrono Trigger sounds often different from emulator to emulator and from SPC player to SPC players. The basic decompression algorithm (often noted "old ADPCM system") did just not handle one thing in overflow correctly, causing some short samples to behave different when looped on themselves. When the samples overflows in the BRR compression, it's possible to turn the decompression in a pseudo-random number generator and having resonnant noise samples. Chrono Trigger uses it to its samples 4, 6, 7 and 8. They sound all like white noise, but with different kind of resonnance. On old emulators they sound just like normal tune (no noise), and more recent emultators/SPC players used various hacks so they sound just like perfect white noise, making them sounding all the same, while on the real hardware it isn't pure white noise, but 4 variants of different noises. I think Anti-Resonance worked hard to find the exact behaviour of this, and eventually a real algorithm is out. Chrono Trigger's sound effects still sound different on the last SNES9x than on my real SNES (while sounding much closer than older versions), and AlphaII SPC player seems to have everything accurate.
EDIT : To make things clear, I uploaded some evident WAV examples. They have been ripped from Chrono Trigger, when wind is played.
CT_wind_old uses the old innacurate method that don't support noise-self-looping samples. It's weird and doesn't sound much like wind. I'm pretty sure all dated emulators will render something like that.
CT_wind_fake uses a "hack" to support noise-self-looping samples, but in a bad and inacurate way. I think there has been many variants arround, but this one is from Super Jukebox.
CT_wind_real has been recorded from latest AlphaII SPC player and sounds like the real hardware. It's close from version #2 so Joe Gamer won't see any difference, but it actually sound more sofisticated noise than the one above.
Third sample is 404 (not found).
Well, don't be so fast. I always have problems typing down all things correctly (stupid case sensitiveness), so it takes me a few minutes to test and fix problems. It should be okay now.
there sure was some difference there
is there any documentation released on these discoverys?
is there any documentation released on these discoverys?
Jagasian wrote:
How good is the pack-in controller compared to an official SNES controller? AFAIK, there is no longer any place to get new official SNES controllers... and that is the part of the system that does wear out over the years.
Same basic feel, but seem slightly cheaper. If you want an authentic feel pop the boards inside into an SNES controller shell since the normal SNES controller does not function properly with NES games.
cheese007 wrote:
since the normal SNES controller does not function properly with NES games.
Why not? It should just be that the buttons on the right are remapped.
Haven't tested it myself, it's just what I've heard.
Speaking of controllers, I have a Gamestation (thanks to Lik-Sang sponsoring y2kode when they were still around and cool, fuck Sony BTW), which is probably the same clone chipset mostly, and the only thing that really gets me is that it won't work with 2 genuine SNES controllers.
I can plug the "Fighting Back" controller that came included with it into either port, and at the same time I can plug a normal SNES controller into either port. But if I plug normal SNES controllers into both ports, it goes haywire when you press any button and acts as if every button is being pressed at once.
Any idea why?
I can plug the "Fighting Back" controller that came included with it into either port, and at the same time I can plug a normal SNES controller into either port. But if I plug normal SNES controllers into both ports, it goes haywire when you press any button and acts as if every button is being pressed at once.
Any idea why?
If the B button makes all buttons go at once, the 'strobe' line isn't getting through.
That's interesting. I have no clue why it would do that, even if it's a clone.
tepples: Yep, found that out while soldering to many NOACs when tracing the controller lines wrong
Don't see why plugging 2 official controllers in at the same time would somehow mess with the strobe lines though... unless the controllers are bridging lines that the pirate ones aren't and that's screwing it up.
Don't see why plugging 2 official controllers in at the same time would somehow mess with the strobe lines though... unless the controllers are bridging lines that the pirate ones aren't and that's screwing it up.
Or perhaps one controller is holding its output low/high after the transaction has completed and the other is 3-stating it. Or perhaps the other data lines (corresponding to NES D3/D4) react differently. Do the unlicensed controllers work on a Super NES brand system?
dXtr wrote:
there sure was some difference there
is there any documentation released on these discoverys?
is there any documentation released on these discoverys?
Unfortunately not, else I would have clarrified things better for a while.
There is only one BRR decoding doccument, and I cannot found it anymore unfortunately. It states the algoritms to decode in 4 different decoding modes. One decoding mode is just normal PCM, the second one is a variant of DPCM wich feedback on the previous value to find the next sample, and the two last are variants of ADPCM wich feedback the last two previous values. There is some formulas to decode samples, and those are valid in all cases. However, the problem comes from clamping the samples to 16-bits, and to samples that overflows from the 16-bit ranges at the same times they loop on themselves making the feedback behaving differently on the second loop than on the first, and this for infinity can crate weird noise samples. If feedback looping and clamping isn't emulated 100% accurately, you get very various results. Without counting that some emulators actually used hacks to detect this and create noise when this is detected artificially to prevent sound effects sounding completely wrong.
The problem for ALL SNESdev related stuff is the serious disorder in all doccumentations and the lack of a "big" site where any SNESdev stuff is odered in. Also, SNESdev people know a lot of things that have never been doccumented aside being doccumented unproprely on forums, and a lot of very old doccuments stating very wrong information as being right. It's even worse thant GBAguy's tutorial for NES, because there is even so called official doccumentation wich states wrong things, and people just think it's a reference because it's official, and are getting things all wrong.
Bregalad wrote:
The problem for ALL SNESdev related stuff is the serious disorder in all doccumentations and the lack of a "big" site where any SNESdev stuff is odered in.
So would it be a good idea to make a wiki documenting the Super NES, much like Quietust's NES wiki?
Sure, it would be great, but only if the info in it would be confirmed to be accurate.
Bregalad wrote:
Sure, it would be great, but only if the info in it would be confirmed to be accurate.
Then perhaps the wiki should be developed in parallel with an emulator, such that the emulator implements exactly what is described by the wiki. This is the approach that I'm taking with LOCKJAW: to implement everything exactly as Tetriswiki describes it.
Bregalad wrote:
The problem for ALL SNESdev related stuff is the serious disorder in all doccumentations and the lack of a "big" site where any SNESdev stuff is odered in.
This is something I've wanted to fix for a long time.. I've been thinking of setting up a little snesdev site for collecting all information and hopefully also the people intressted in developing for it.. only reason I havn't is that it takes time to set it up and write the code for the site.
edit: removed some text that didn't really have anything with this to do.
dXtr wrote:
I've been thinking of setting up a little snesdev site for collecting all information and hopefully also the people intressted in developing for it.. only reason I havn't is that it takes time to set it up and write the code for the site.
Try some code for the site.
tepples wrote:
dXtr wrote:
I've been thinking of setting up a little snesdev site for collecting all information and hopefully also the people intressted in developing for it.. only reason I havn't is that it takes time to set it up and write the code for the site.
Try some code for the site.
Indeed - it's fairly simple to install, and it's the very same code that runs the NESdev wiki.
Hell, it's the very same code that runs Wikipedia.
heh. maybe I should install it then, atleast it's a good start until I get the other up and running
Have setup a wiki now.. just going to configure it and then I post a link.
just have to run over to my work first.. had some important meeting.
anyway.. as this is the first PUBLIC wiki I've installed, it would be good with some tips on how to config it to reduce the risk of spam.
edit:
Ok. it's up and running.. but I'm thinking of holding of the unveiling for a week until I get my next payment so I can move my webspace over to a php5 enabled server - the one I'm hosted on now is php4 and they told me they could move me to a php5 server for ~20$ - so I can use the latest mediawiki so I can install some anti-spam extensions. sorry for the delay.
just have to run over to my work first.. had some important meeting.
anyway.. as this is the first PUBLIC wiki I've installed, it would be good with some tips on how to config it to reduce the risk of spam.
edit:
Ok. it's up and running.. but I'm thinking of holding of the unveiling for a week until I get my next payment so I can move my webspace over to a php5 enabled server - the one I'm hosted on now is php4 and they told me they could move me to a php5 server for ~20$ - so I can use the latest mediawiki so I can install some anti-spam extensions. sorry for the delay.
OK, as far as I can tell, all the people here who are SURE there will be sound reproduction problems in some SNES games are the people who haven't got one of these latest units and haven't tested first hand. If one of the pickiest among you would please buy, or borrow, one and report back, the rest of us would be appreciative, because until someone does just that this discussion is largely moot. Chip and process analysis tells us absolutely nothing until a human ear steps in and has the final say.
Which Super NES games are the pickiest about SPC/DSP behavior? Is Chrono Trigger one of them?
Name a game (or a specific SPC) and I could make a recording from my SNES clone when I get a chance.
The very simplest way to try how accurate sound is is to start a new game of Final Fantasy VI, and when the gameplay begins listen how the wind sounds, and then try again with a real SNES (since FF6 wind is almost identical to CT wind, only with echo).
Games where sound effects samples are hard to emulate proprely (SFX samples rely on clamping sample decoder in noise):
- Chrono Trigger
- Final Fantasy IV
- Final Fantasy V
- Final Fantasy VI
- Romancing Saga
- Romancing Saga II
- Romancing Saga III
- Live A Live
- Secret of Mana
- Seiken Densetsu III
- Rudra no Hihou
- Bahamut Lagoon
- Megaman VII
- Megaman X
- Megaman X2
- Megaman X3
- Breath of Fire
- Castlevania : Dracula X
- Zelda III - A link to the past
- ... most probably a ton of others ...
Games where music samles are hard to emulate proprely (samples can be emulated as noise while they aren't supposed to be) :
- Dragon Quest III (pizz strings)
- Dragon Quest VI (pizz strings, identical to above)
- Tactics Ogre (brass instruments)
- ... most probably several others ...
Quote:
Which Super NES games are the pickiest about SPC/DSP behavior?
Games where sound effects samples are hard to emulate proprely (SFX samples rely on clamping sample decoder in noise):
- Chrono Trigger
- Final Fantasy IV
- Final Fantasy V
- Final Fantasy VI
- Romancing Saga
- Romancing Saga II
- Romancing Saga III
- Live A Live
- Secret of Mana
- Seiken Densetsu III
- Rudra no Hihou
- Bahamut Lagoon
- Megaman VII
- Megaman X
- Megaman X2
- Megaman X3
- Breath of Fire
- Castlevania : Dracula X
- Zelda III - A link to the past
- ... most probably a ton of others ...
Games where music samles are hard to emulate proprely (samples can be emulated as noise while they aren't supposed to be) :
- Dragon Quest III (pizz strings)
- Dragon Quest VI (pizz strings, identical to above)
- Tactics Ogre (brass instruments)
- ... most probably several others ...
I've been working on optimizing my SPC-700 DSP code again, and here are a few that use obscure functionality:
Plok (drum samples will click at end if DSP doesn't cut last 9 samples off)
Tetris vs. Dr. Mario (many waves will sound screwed up if DSP doesn't do BRR filtering correctly)
Plok (drum samples will click at end if DSP doesn't cut last 9 samples off)
Tetris vs. Dr. Mario (many waves will sound screwed up if DSP doesn't do BRR filtering correctly)
Blargg & others: ALL stuff that has been covered in this thread has been worked out by Fatlxception in his openspc core. BRR encoding is completely worked out, as is the drum issue in plok which I believe is masked by the interpolation handler's "saturation" during one particular stage. You really need to ask Fatlxception, or at least look at his openspc code.
You may know Fatlxception by his old name: Butcha
Lord Nightmare
You may know Fatlxception by his old name: Butcha
Lord Nightmare
Yes, that was my point, and why I mentioned them as things to test on a Superfamiclone to see if it gets them right too. I'm not sure why some people still think SNES sound emulation is lacking (perhaps they're using old emulators).