I know the previous topic has been closed because of some people having hurt feelings and egos...whatever...keep that $hit out of this post.
I have grown a little impatient waiting for the Retron 5 as most of you have been aware because of a factory defect. Well, I can't wait any more and I want to play my Super Metroid. I have ressurected my boards if anyone has asking. I had to do a few design changes but I got it pretty much tweaked, installed, tested and fully functional circuit.
I apologize to previous people that have emailed me and contacted me about my boards and I didn't send them out. I had some family things come up personally in my life so therefore may I re-introduce my circuit. I also want to know if anyone else has tried it and what their results were.
I don't know much about the component video but doesn't component video have "sync on green"?
I've looked at my tv's component and there's only 3 connections (RGB -- referring to connector colors, not "RGB").
Please educate me here if you don't mind.
Thanks.
Yes, S-Video and component video have sync on luma (Y).
Ah, so the colors of the connectors really don't have anything to do with "colors" on the screen.
So I see 5 connectors on this console. What functions do they all have?
Component video cables with RGB connectors are respectively Unredness (Y-R = Pr), Brightness (Y), and Unblueness (Y-B = Pb).
So my understanding is that most component input TVs only accept 480i, 480p + YPbPr (luma, red/blue offset.) Further, you need sync carried on the luma channel.
So how do you get 240p with the SNES' CSYNC+R+G+B lines to display on these TVs? Or do you have to shop for a very special TV to display the output of these component SNES modded consoles?
Markfrizb wrote:
Ah, so the colors of the connectors really don't have anything to do with "colors" on the screen.
So I see 5 connectors on this console. What functions do they all have?
Red Green Blue are the video (YPbPr NOT RBG) and the Yellow and Black are the stereo audio. Fortunately the SNES was pre-designed for future designs which allows for just a very simple 6db video amplifier.
On my circuit I did have another option to add a 6db buffer for the Luma (green) but, it is not necessary.
byuu wrote:
So how do you get 240p with the SNES' CSYNC+R+G+B lines to display on these TVs? Or do you have to shop for a very special TV to display the output of these component SNES modded consoles?
Actual RGB works through a SCART cable.
byuu wrote:
So my understanding is that most component input TVs only accept 480i, 480p + YPbPr (luma, red/blue offset.) Further, you need sync carried on the luma channel.
So how do you get 240p with the SNES' CSYNC+R+G+B lines to display on these TVs? Or do you have to shop for a very special TV to display the output of these component SNES modded consoles?
From my knowledge the signal that comes out is a Standard video signal and therefore Nintendo has to follow a certain spec, a set of rules, so that it is Universally comparable on every YPbPr device. We are talking the good old Analog world and the circuit I designed is a simple standard video amplifier to bring it back up to spec so therefore you don't need a special TV or Receiver or need to worry about the resistance in the cables blah blah blah. A company already designed the interface chip, boom, tossed it in works great. I have heard of other people using transistors...meh...this chip was designed specifically for what we are trying to achieve. To answer your question, NO you don't need a special TV. I hooked this up to my projector and it works fine. You DEFINITELY can tell the difference the picture is noticeably sharper and more vibrant.
tepples wrote:
byuu wrote:
So how do you get 240p with the SNES' CSYNC+R+G+B lines to display on these TVs? Or do you have to shop for a very special TV to display the output of these component SNES modded consoles?
Actual RGB works through a SCART cable.
Quoted from AVS...
You could do a search and learn the technical differences. (RGB is certainly not crap) In an easy nutshell. YCbCr is a consumer video format and this is the way HD is encoded. RGB is the traditional computer format. One is not superior to the other because each has it's own strengths and weaknesses. YCbCr is preferred because it is the native format.
kriskizlyk wrote:
From my knowledge the signal that comes out is a Standard video signal and therefore Nintendo has to follow a certain spec, a set of rules, so that it is Universally comparable on every YPbPr device.
The point byuu was asking was about 240p vs 480i. Most of the time the SNES produces 240p video.
240p is not standards compliant, and the vast majority of HDTVs (to the best of our knowledge) don't detect it and incorrectly try to deinterlace it.
Even worse than just ordinary deinterlacing is that a lot of HDTVs use sophisticated "3d" deinterlacing that imposes a 100-500ms delay on video frames that go through it. That's sorta ok for RPGs, but not so fantastic for anything remotely caring about reaction time.
For more details, see the
240p test suite, a little homebrew for the Genesis (and its documentation).
kriskizlyk wrote:
YCbCr is preferred because it is the native format.
The SNES is actually native RGB. The BA6592F/S-ENC/S-RGB IC first converts RGB to YPrPb and then uses that to form s-video and composite.
Taking pictures without a tripod sucks...anywise. I took some pictures with the circuit. I am saturating the reds a little too much because you can see a little distortion of color on the top. Simple fix... I didn't have the exact components in surface mount than I did with through hole...I would have to order some. The edges are much much smother around images. The pixels are sure noticeable on a 144 inch screen.
Bah, I will do this again for you and get a better tripod and the proper capacitors...but this is the teaser.
lidnariq wrote:
kriskizlyk wrote:
From my knowledge the signal that comes out is a Standard video signal and therefore Nintendo has to follow a certain spec, a set of rules, so that it is Universally comparable on every YPbPr device.
The point byuu was asking was about 240p vs 480i. Most of the time the SNES produces 240p video.
240p is not standards compliant, and the vast majority of HDTVs (to the best of our knowledge) don't detect it and incorrectly try to deinterlace it.
Even worse than just ordinary deinterlacing is that a lot of HDTVs use sophisticated "3d" deinterlacing that imposes a 100-500ms delay on video frames that go through it. That's sorta ok for RPGs, but not so fantastic for anything remotely caring about reaction time.
For more details, see the
240p test suite, a little homebrew for the Genesis (and its documentation).
kriskizlyk wrote:
YCbCr is preferred because it is the native format.
The SNES is actually native RGB. The BA6592F/S-ENC/S-RGB IC first converts RGB to YPrPb and then uses that to form s-video and composite.
Noted. You obviously know more than me and thank you for clarifying.
> Actual RGB works through a SCART cable.
Obviously. I have a Sony PVM that I output raw RGB to through a SCART adapter.
I was inquiring about using the SNES with a component input TV.
> 240p is not standards compliant, and the vast majority of HDTVs (to the best of our knowledge) don't detect it and incorrectly try to deinterlace it.
This, and color. I've read that most HDTVs don't accept R/G/B lines through component. They only accept Y/Pb/Pr. They are not equivalent at all. The SNES doesn't output in Y/Pb/Pr format on the MultiAV pins, which seems like a problem for directly connecting it to an HDTV.
> The BA6592F/S-ENC/S-RGB IC first converts RGB to YPrPb and then uses that to form s-video and composite.
Ah, okay. So this chip lets you capture the raw Y/Pb/Pr before it's merged into S-video and composite? Neat.
So with that out of the way, the only issue is finding an HDTV that definitely handles 240p properly. Kind of a shame there's not more in the way of cheap, no-latency line doublers. (you can do it, but that stuff gets so expensive ... culminating in the $500 XRGB Mini.)
Sure this is not direct RGB, however doing RGB was not my goal. My goal was to just simply just picked up YPbPr circuit buffered it and put it out. If anyone wants to go deep into it Google has many solutions to creating a RGB to YPbPr converter. For example LT has a LT1395 that will do it for you. With your help of course, I could re-design and create the circuit, run it through my buffer and post my results...only if people enough people are interested. Retrorgb suggests that you use a THS7314DR.
Here is the link
http://www.linear.com/solutions/1312 and the circuit.
I got most of my ideas from...
http://retrorgb.com/snesminirgb.html, they have modified the SNES mini which has the best output...RGB
byuu wrote:
So with that out of the way, the only issue is finding an HDTV that definitely handles 240p properly. Kind of a shame there's not more in the way of cheap, no-latency line doublers. (you can do it, but that stuff gets so expensive ... culminating in the $500 XRGB Mini.)
I have to be honest...it is worth every penny. I bought one last year for hooking up all my retro systems to my 110" projector setup, and the picture is sharp and beautiful. No latency, no issues. The only time it sucks is with games that constantly switch between 240p and 480i signals, as it takes about 5 seconds for the XRGB mini to switch.
All this work on the SNES systems, buying extra circuits and such (not to mention drilling holes in the back) seems like a little too much work, when for $400 you can buy a device that properly handles ALL your retro systems...and you can even add scanlines
getafixx wrote:
The only time it sucks is with games that constantly switch between 240p and 480i signals, as it takes about 5 seconds for the XRGB mini to switch.
The only game I can think of like that is
Dance Dance Revolution series for PlayStation, which uses 480i in menus and 240p in game. What Super NES games switch back and forth?
No SNES games that I know of do that, or NES or Genesis for that matter. I meant games in general, pretty much anything PSX and later.
Another couple of titles are Chrono Cross on PSX which is 240p in game and 480i in menus, and Killer Instinct Gold on N64 that is 240p during fights, but 480i everwhere else.
Or just wait for the $99 Retron 5
, by which I am really excited for!
I have never heard of this XRGB Mini, it looks fantastic! I would buy one if I hadn't already found the Retron 5. The device is very over priced and sometimes the most expensive solution is not the "best". With this device you still have to get the RGB connection from your console to achieve "enthusiast" results
and I am sure that there are cables.
I just thought I would put my electronics knowledge to use and learn something new and maybe get something out to the masses where they don't have to pay top dollar. The little circuit that I built only cost me < $10, now it isn't perfect and requires some tweaking but I get what I am looking for.
Don't get me wrong, I think what you've got working is great! I am in no way bashing anything you've done.
What I'm saying is, for me instead of spending hours on modding 1 system to get a better picture, why not spend the money and make it so that all your retro systems can benefit at the same time? My Genesis was *unplayable* on my projector before I bought the XRGBmini....literally, the colors bled together so bad that it looked like someone vomited on my screen. Now it looks just as good, nay, better than it did on my old CRT.
I guess my mind-set is more "time=money", so it made sense to me to spend the money and save the time. It's not the choice for everyone, as byuu pointed out.
getafixx wrote:
I guess my mind-set is more "time=money", so it made sense to me to spend the money and save the time.
Time is not money; they have
different units. I'm pretty sure you're trying to say that time is proportional to money, and I'll agree with that. But the proportionality constant depends on several things.
- One is the exchange rate between your country's currency and the dollar and euro. The buying power of a country's currency tends to run lower in countries without an established export sector.
- Another is the employment situation in your area. If all you can find is a job for which you're drastically overqualified, time is worth less money.
- Another is your country's import duties (hi tokumaru).
- Another is the cost of working around other countries' sanctions on your government (hi Farid).
getafixx wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I think what you've got working is great! I am in no way bashing anything you've done.
What I'm saying is, for me instead of spending hours on modding 1 system to get a better picture, why not spend the money and make it so that all your retro systems can benefit at the same time? My Genesis was *unplayable* on my projector before I bought the XRGBmini....literally, the colors bled together so bad that it looked like someone vomited on my screen. Now it looks just as good, nay, better than it did on my old CRT.
I guess my mind-set is more "time=money", so it made sense to me to spend the money and save the time. It's not the choice for everyone, as byuu pointed out.
I really appreciate the XRGBmini suggestion and I wish that it was thrown out there before I did all this research. Now that the this device is in the brain bank I always have a fall back. When it comes down to it your right, time=money especially with a Full-Time job, Wife, Kids and so on. The previous topic was a wash and nothing got solved, people started attacking each other which just ruins any new people's perspective of accomplishing the project.
What are your thoughts about the Retron 5 being that you have a projector just like myself?
RetroN 5 has 5 slots for 5 platforms; NES has both 60 and 72 pin slots, and the GBA slot takes both GBA and GBC carts. But I've read that it's just an emulator that dumps the cart to RAM and plays it from there. Emulators tend to break with programs that rely on hardware edge cases that the emulator
handles incorrectly and with newly discovered or invented mappers (NES) or coprocessors (Super NES). For example, an emulator created prior to a few years ago won't support the Action 53 mapper (#28) or the MSU-1 coprocessor. You rely on the hardware manufacturer for making games compatible. I'd love to see what it does with the PowerPak.
But then I could be wrong; if so, please correct me.
tepples wrote:
RetroN 5 has 5 slots for 5 platforms; NES has both 60 and 72 pin slots, and the GBA slot takes both GBA and GBC carts. But I've read that it's just an emulator that dumps the cart to RAM and plays it from there. Emulators tend to break with programs that rely on hardware edge cases that the emulator
handles incorrectly and with newly discovered or invented mappers (NES) or coprocessors (Super NES). For example, an emulator created prior to a few years ago won't support the Action 53 mapper (#28) or the MSU-1 coprocessor. You rely on the hardware manufacturer for making games compatible. I'd love to see what it does with the PowerPak.
But then I could be wrong; if so, please correct me.
Completely understand what it does, and emulation at its best. I have had mine pre-ordered since last September, personal opinion is what I was looking for. I hope they designed it to properly upscale the graphics so that the processor can handle the game play smoothly.
Emulation dump, is perfectly fine for me just as long as it works as I have a sd2nes, Everdrive MD, Everdrive N8, Gameboy ED adapters and was hoping to rock those. I am looking forward to the wireless Bluetooth controller because I do have a projector.
tepples wrote:
Time is not money; they have
different unitsThanks for the math lesson
kriskizlyk wrote:
What are your thoughts about the Retron 5 being that you have a projector just like myself?
I don't really care for clone systems myself...but maybe that's just me. Given, the HDMI out
is a nice feature, but I don't believe it will look as good in comparison to a dedicated upscaler/line doubler. Unless they have a really kick-ass system in there, but given the past Retron systems' manufacturing quality I kinda doubt it. I hope I'm wrong, as there is a lot of hype about it.
I'm sure it will get the job done. At the very least it will look much better than composite or S-Video on most HD devices...and at $99 I guess you can't complain too much
tepples wrote:
But I've read that it's just an emulator that dumps the cart to RAM and plays it from there.
I wonder how it works around the multitude of mappers present in NES and Famicom carts. Could the dumping script be selected based on a database of CRCs? That would suck for people wanting to play homebrew games.
Quote:
I'd love to see what it does with the PowerPak.
Many people are wondering what it'll do with Krikzz's Everdrives too. My guess is that they'll simply not work.
tokumaru wrote:
Quote:
I'd love to see what it does with the PowerPak.
Many people are wondering what it'll do with Krikzz's Everdrives too. My guess is that they'll simply not work.
I predict the same, but the idea of using an SD card based cartridge on a system that dumps what it expects to be ROM cartridges to run with an NES emulator on a shitty Android platform is
hilarious already.
mikejmoffitt wrote:
the idea of using an SD card based cartridge on a system that dumps what it expects to be ROM cartridges to run with an NES emulator on a shitty Android platform is hilarious already.
Indeed! A device pretending to be a cartridge connected to a device (which most likely is able to read SD cards directly, even if this feature is hidden from the user) pretending to be a console... sounds like the most inefficient setup ever!
There is less efficient: a CHIP-8 emulator for NES in PocketNES in VisualBoyAdvance GX in Dolphin in VirtualBox. Do it!
Now back to choosing the proper components for component video from an authentic console.
tepples wrote:
There is less efficient: a CHIP-8 emulator for NES in PocketNES in VisualBoyAdvance GX in Dolphin in VirtualBox. Do it!
Now back to choosing the proper components for component video from an authentic console.
I have done some research and I have found some schematics and design ideas very similar to what the XRGB mini does and tones of other similar products for relatively less cost. I might go down the route actually build something similar to this that would work with every console. However, it would take a lot of my time and I do not have much experience with video signals nor the equipment (100MhZ+ Scopes and DSO) the reward might be worth the risk.
Your thoughts?
tepples wrote:
There is less efficient: a CHIP-8 emulator for NES in PocketNES in VisualBoyAdvance GX in Dolphin in VirtualBox. Do it!
Now back to choosing the proper components for component video from an authentic console.
You forgot the host system running in Qemu!
I know he was part of the reason why the previous thread got locked, but kyuusaku/Calpis suggested using the THS7314 in AC coupled mode on ASSEMbler. I'm tempted to try it out on my Super Fami (which uses the SHVC-CPU-01 board) even though I mainly use RGB. Here it is if anyone else wants to try it:
Well...super disappointed with the Retron 5. The controller uses micro switches and analog sticks which is horrible, I know I can use the original controllers but I bought it because it was bluetooth. I was holding out that eventually someone would exploit it so that it could run my Ever carts but that doesn't look promising.
Really the only good thing about it is that it is HDMI and the picture looks amazing.
I explored other options like a PiTendo which is still a great idea, but if I am going to play Retro...I want to play my original carts, system and the expensive Evercarts as well.
So I took Mr. "getafixx"'s advice and bought a XRBG Mini. This means I won't be re-resurrecting my YPbPr board just yet because the Snes has a RBG output and therefore I will get the Scart cable.
By "Evercarts" do you mean Everdrive? The Retron 5 will never support that, it's fundamentally incompatible.
kriskizlyk wrote:
So I took Mr. "getafixx"'s advice and bought a XRBG Mini.
Have you received it yet? What do you think of it?
rainwarrior wrote:
By "Evercarts" do you mean Everdrive? The Retron 5 will never support that, it's fundamentally incompatible.
Yep, I am just as bitter about it as you are!
getafixx wrote:
kriskizlyk wrote:
So I took Mr. "getafixx"'s advice and bought a XRBG Mini.
Have you received it yet? What do you think of it?
I just ordered it today so it won't be here for a few days to a week. I am just trying to make sure I get the correct cables ordered. I would like to get my Nes, Snes, N64 and Genesis all using the RBG Scart cable using the least amount of mods. I have to get some sort of IR switcher of course just haven't found anything yet,
Not sure about NES, but the N64 for sure has to be modded and only certain models can be modded at all. I bought RGB cables for both my SNES and Genesis as those both output RGB natively anyways, but my N64 doesn't have the right encoder chip so I can't mod it. Oh well, the S-video still looks pretty damn good when hooked into the XRGB
In theory, S-Video ought to look as good as component for any 240p or 480i signal whose chroma doesn't exceed 373 distinct (Pb, Pr) samples per line. VCD has 176, DVD has 352, Genesis has 350 (320 picture + 30 border), and Super NES has 280 (256 picture + 24 border). Only hi-res backgrounds on the Super NES exceed this with 560 samples (512 picture + 48 border), and apart from RPM Racing, most games that use hi-res probably use it for white text (which doesn't have chroma).
I was under the impression that it just merged two consecutive pixels into one (so in theory it's still outputting the same amount of pixels in the end).
Hi-res may appear to merge two pixels into one if you've been playing with composite. In composite, each hi-res pixel covers one-third of a period of the chroma subcarrier, and most SDTVs (as opposed to computer monitors) will blur more than 500 pixels across anyway. But if you display menu of SIMBA firmware for the SNES PowerPak, you can tell the difference. I don't have a screenshot handy at the moment, so have a diagonal line drawn with both "merged" (sub+main)/2 and "hi-res" sub-then-main blending modes.
Well, I'm going by how the documentation says that the mode uses up the blending hardware (which means you can't use the blending functions in this mode), as well as the fact that it's called "H-Pseudo 512".
getafixx wrote:
Not sure about NES, but the N64 for sure has to be modded and only certain models can be modded at all. I bought RGB cables for both my SNES and Genesis as those both output RGB natively anyways, but my N64 doesn't have the right encoder chip so I can't mod it. Oh well, the S-video still looks pretty damn good when hooked into the XRGB
Ok the XRBG mini has come in! Now I am confused by this cable...
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Super-Nintendo-s ... 1548189620?
Its a SNES to SCART but it says not to use with XRBG with out a converter...forgive my ignorance, but what does that mean? Also, what splitter do you use when it comes to switching between consoles, assuming you do so, Genesis/Nes/SNES?
Hello to all of you.
I would like to ask a question about the component mod. I`m new here so sorry in advance if I make any mistake
Little description:
1. I did the component mod on PAL SNES without any circuits and it looked horible, apart from that no problems.
2. I added 75ohm resistors to eache of the lines and the picture was perfect, but somting whent wrong and my TV started turning of the picture randomly.
3. I made a circuit to amp blue, aded a pot to red and left 75 ohm resistor on green, again picture was perfect, but the turning of persisted.
4. I noticed that the turning off is hapening more often when the picture is moving.
5. Doesnt mater if it is PAL or NTSC game or 50 / 60 hz picture.
6. SNES is conected straight to the component_in on the TV (by good quality composite cable not component).
Eny idea what may cause the turning off of the picture? Generaly it is working ok for some time and then turns off sudenly for ~2seconds and then back on.
kriskizlyk wrote:
getafixx wrote:
Not sure about NES, but the N64 for sure has to be modded and only certain models can be modded at all. I bought RGB cables for both my SNES and Genesis as those both output RGB natively anyways, but my N64 doesn't have the right encoder chip so I can't mod it. Oh well, the S-video still looks pretty damn good when hooked into the XRGB
Ok the XRBG mini has come in! Now I am confused by this cable...
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Super-Nintendo-s ... 1548189620?
Its a SNES to SCART but it says not to use with XRBG with out a converter...forgive my ignorance, but what does that mean? Also, what splitter do you use when it comes to switching between consoles, assuming you do so, Genesis/Nes/SNES?
The XRGB series that have 21-pin connectors use a pinout commonly called "JP21". Same connector as scart, wired differently.
For your XRGB mini, though, you've already got to get a Mini-DIN adapter, so just make sure you get one wired for euro scart.
As for switchers, I personally recommend ditching SCART entirely and building VGA cables for RGB video, and using the common VGA switching hardware that is plentiful thanks to the last twenty years of computing.
I guess that depends on whether existing VGA automatic switches are suitable for video with a 15.7 kHz (240p/480i) horizontal frequency, as opposed to VGA which rarely dips below 31.5 kHz (480p).
Thanks for responding. I kinda gave up on this project...there were to many variables and too much messing around. I kinda took a turn into Hyperspin and emulation...sure its not the most "real feals" but a huge time saver. I bought a Framemeiser, and have only used it twice. For me it was a waste of $700...kind of a shame that it now just sits in my closet.
tepples wrote:
I guess that depends on whether existing VGA automatic switches are suitable for video with a 15.7 kHz (240p/480i) horizontal frequency, as opposed to VGA which rarely dips below 31.5 kHz (480p).
Every automatic one I've used was fine with 15Khz horizontal frequency, and also handled composite-sync through the H-sync pins just fine. The horizontal refresh range and sync composition are the only substantial differences between VGA and the traditional RGB semi-defacto-standard.
kriskizlyk wrote:
Thanks for responding. I kinda gave up on this project...there were to many variables and too much messing around. I kinda took a turn into Hyperspin and emulation...sure its not the most "real feals" but a huge time saver. I bought a Framemeiser, and have only used it twice. For me it was a waste of $700...kind of a shame that it now just sits in my closet.
$700? For $700 I hope you got
several Framemeisters!